Reptile & Amphibian Forums

the rhino viper naturaly comes from a humid wet enviornment so this mean they are less prone to these moisture related problems then other snakes? or are they still at risk?..if so then how would i go about creating a humid enviornment without keeping the substrate moist? thanks for the input

A constant moist substrate will invariably lead to many skin related problems (some that can be extremely difficult to treat). Although this species does come from a rainforest-type of environment, they get to CHOOSE where they spend their time and believe me, its not in contantly damp conditions. I use high quality misting systems to provide regular misting and optimal humidity levels w/out having to keep the substrate damp; there are moist pockets in the cage but I also provide drier areas should the snake so desire (and they do much of the time)....but, the air still has a relatively high ambient humidity level. Hand misting can yield similar results but it is far more labor intensive. My rhinos shed regularly and all in one piece under this regimen. My temps range from 70-72 deg. F. to the upper 70's and a small, localized basking area that reaches the low to mid 80's. I don't soak my rhinos like many will recommend, however, my snakes have never had complications related to impaction or anything of the like....proper humidity, opportunities to drink out of SHALLOW water bowls and proper thermal gradients are the keys to success with this species (in addition to avoiding power feeding at all costs).

Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildilfe Discovery Center
Lake Forest, IL

>>the rhino viper naturaly comes from a humid wet enviornment so this mean they are less prone to these moisture related problems then other snakes? or are they still at risk?..if so then how would i go about creating a humid enviornment without keeping the substrate moist? thanks for the input
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

was what one might call a definitive answer. Great job, Rob!

~~Greg~~

...not to beat a dead horse or anything. Many herp owners make the mistake of assuming that if a particular species typically lives in a humid or wet environment that it needs it all the time. One of the best examples are water snakes of the Nerodia complex. They spend much of their time in the water, however, if you spend time observing them (and I spend LOTS of time observing and studying Nerodia sipedon), you will find that when out of the water, they LOVE to bask on dry surfaces; in fact, they'll bake under the sun for hours. You hear many water snake owners complain that their animals are getting blisters on the ventral surfaces. Once you probe them a bit, you realize that they provide ZERO warm and DRY basking surfaces under a bright, hot lamp. To me, it seems like common sense but common sense doesn't seem to prevail when it comes to uninformed people keeping herps. Alright, I'm done!

>>was what one might call a definitive answer. Great job, Rob!
>>
>> ~~Greg~~
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

As a keeper of Eunectes (murinus and notaeus) I can agree with that. It is a very common misconception people have that these animals need to be kept in water all the time when in fact it is a huge health risk. You can check out the bister photos we will have at CHS's reptile fest. Our display will be all about the green anaconda. And Rob, I need to contact you about something...what would be a good time to call you?

Generally skin blisters start for the inside out (Bad bacteria), but if the water is dirty and the animal is stressed you will run into the same problems.

My B. nasicornis as well as my GabbyXRhino crosses did excellent being kept in very shallow water.
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Chad Bachman

I just think that is asking for trouble in the long run. Even in clean water, problems will arise eventually. Plus, you won't find these snakes sitting in water continuously in the wild. Just my .02 but hey, we all do what we feel is best for our animals.
>>Generally skin blisters start for the inside out (Bad bacteria), but if the water is dirty and the animal is stressed you will run into the same problems.
>>
>>My B. nasicornis as well as my GabbyXRhino crosses did excellent being kept in very shallow water.
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>>Chad Bachman
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

.
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Chad Bachman

WOW, that really surprises me. I respectfully and wholeheartedly disagree with your approach; sounds like a recipe for disaster and in the long run, it will not prove to be a good move (but I truly hope that I am wrong). Keeping a snake, even Bitis, EVEN NERODIA, is not natural and it will put stress on the animal (even if it is so subtle that you can't see it). If anyone else is considering doing this, I would just reiterate that keeping a snake in water on a continual basis is NOT natural and forces an animal to not be able to decide what is best for itself. But, it sounds like I am beating a dead horse so I'll shut up.

>>.
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>>Chad Bachman
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

I don't expect anybody to believe me here on this forum, but myself & others have had great outcomes with this method. I would also advise against it, because I know how alot of people care for their animals (not very well), but just sharing my nasicornis care techniques.
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Chad Bachman

I don't think its a question of believing; believe me, nothing surprises me as to what I read on these forums; some of the advice is just absolutely outlandish. Keeping a snake continually in water is just bad husbandry and I don't care if others vouch for their success using this technique, in the long run, it will hurt the animal. But hey, its not my animals and as I said before, everyone must do what they feel is best for their animals. I live in the dry winters of the Midwest and my Bitis have never encountered a problem on dry substrata (w/humid ambient temps); no bad sheds, no impaction, and these are long term animals. But, its safe to say that we just disagree on this one.

>>I don't expect anybody to believe me here on this forum, but myself & others have had great outcomes with this method. I would also advise against it, because I know how alot of people care for their animals (not very well), but just sharing my nasicornis care techniques.
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>>Chad Bachman
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

>>I don't think its a question of believing; believe me, nothing surprises me as to what I read on these forums; some of the advice is just absolutely outlandish. Keeping a snake continually in water is just bad husbandry and I don't care if others vouch for their success using this technique, in the long run, it will hurt the animal.

What is a long run? I did it for 2 years without problems, and another guy is up around 10 years with this method, also without incident.

I by no means am trying to promote this technique, just sharing my results with it.

I too was skeptical after being told about this type of setup, but after using it, I'm a believer.

I got the responce I thought I would get, but I too would have givin the same responce as you unless I didn't see it for myself.

No offense & none taken.
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Chad Bachman

I hear what you are saying Chad but just because a snake thrives in certain conditions doesn't make it good. Heck, I've seen snakes thrive in filth for years but does that make it successful? I think we have a responsibility to provide optimal conditions based on what these animals would typically see in the wild. Gaboon vipers are NOT aquatic animals and they don't spend massive quantities of time partially submerged in water. And while mimicing wild conditions is virtually impossible in a captive setting, there are certain basic requirements that need to be met. Somehow, keeping a gaboon in permanently standing water, with no ability to choose where it wants to go or dry off when it NEEDS to, is just a bad practice; it doesn't matter how long someone can keep them alive in that set up. It looks like you were led astray by some well intentioned but misinformed folks who based "success" on the wrong parameters.

>>>>I don't think its a question of believing; believe me, nothing surprises me as to what I read on these forums; some of the advice is just absolutely outlandish. Keeping a snake continually in water is just bad husbandry and I don't care if others vouch for their success using this technique, in the long run, it will hurt the animal.
>>
>>What is a long run? I did it for 2 years without problems, and another guy is up around 10 years with this method, also without incident.
>>
>>I by no means am trying to promote this technique, just sharing my results with it.
>>
>>I too was skeptical after being told about this type of setup, but after using it, I'm a believer.
>>
>>I got the responce I thought I would get, but I too would have givin the same responce as you unless I didn't see it for myself.
>>
>>No offense & none taken.
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>>Chad Bachman
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

Call me anytime during the day at:

office: 847-615-4388 (if you get my voice mail leave your number and I will call you back and give you my cell phone number). Rob

>>As a keeper of Eunectes (murinus and notaeus) I can agree with that. It is a very common misconception people have that these animals need to be kept in water all the time when in fact it is a huge health risk. You can check out the bister photos we will have at CHS's reptile fest. Our display will be all about the green anaconda. And Rob, I need to contact you about something...what would be a good time to call you?
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

thanks for the great reply...

I have kept & know other people who have kept B. nasicornis in water, (very shallow with no dry spot) and they did excellet (this was done for years with no ill effects). The water must be changed at least 2-3 times weekly or more as needed, or you will run into problems. They even bred & produced this way for one of the people keeping them this way.

I have also kept them dry, but keeping them in the water has always encouraged a heathier looking snake.
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Chad Bachman

But why not offer a choice to have a dry basking spot? We are constantly pressing everyone to have a temp gradient, a hide spot ect. why not a humidity gradient? Just a thought. I think you could make some really fabulous looking enclosures with a combination of your idea and the generally accepted methods.

"If only you could just ask'm what they prefer"

I started out providing them with a dry hide spot, but they never used it, so I took it out. One of the other people I know that kept them this way provided them with a piece of slate, but his hardley ever used them. I'm not trying to promote this type of setup, but it has worked very well for those of us who used it.
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Chad Bachman