Reptile & Amphibian Forums

right now, I am very frustrated-everything was perfect. I had posted - I dont know when, all my temps, set up, etc, and we were off to a great start.
I have a 36 gram sulcata that was 35 grams at the end of November.
It ate, I religiously soaked it for fifteen minutes every single day, I have a temp gradient of 75-105. Humid area, the rest dry, water dish constantly. Offered food consisting of grazing mixture, wheatgrass, and timothy hay, also cactus pads cut up fine, carrot, squash, mazuri tortoise diet, pumpkin,kale, etc.I sprinkled calcium on all food. I have a reptisun 8.0 and 10.0 light on all day long-
he was eating great, then started tapering off. I worried, his shell seemed to get softer and softer- the plastron(?) -bottom shell- then he just quit moving. I have been waiting for three days for the herp vet to get in to my work- but it quit moving, quit eating. I was unsure where to place it when I went to work today because I didnt know if it COULD move to cool off, warm up, etc. So, I placed it in an area that has a temp of 85 degrees. When I got home from work, it was in the cool end, burrowed-cool end being 75. I "undug" it, and I thought it was dead. Extremely dehydrated, sunken eyes, shriveled legs,not moving anything. WHile showing my b/f, it moved its leg. I soaked it in warm water, and it moved its leg again- so I rushed it in to the vet. i called ahead, the herp vet was in the neighborhood so she waited for me. We gave 3ml of subQ fluid, 0.1 ml of Baytril, one drop of calcium gluconate. She told me to forcefeed critical care herbivore diet- but I CANNOT figure out how to get his mouth open.I tried using a syringe needle-25 gauge-but It is so tiny,and clamped tight, I am afraid of damaging his beak. Please, do you have any ideas to help?
Is there anything else I can do to save this little guy that you can think of? Is there more we can do? Or, do you think it is too late? Also, can you see anything in what I have said that I could have done wrong? If he does make it or not, I do not want to repeat the same mistakes. I am so frustrated at this point. I could understand if I was slacking in his care, or didnt have something right AND knew it, but I really researched and tried hard here and this is driving me batty.

I know this is really long but I wanted to give all details. Thank you so much in advance.

At this point, force-feeding may be your only hope. And it has to be juices, or preferably juices mixed with vitamins. He most likely cannot digest solid food right now. If you have a juicer, I can tell you what to juice to save him. A blender will work also, but you have to strain out the pulp. Antibiotics will be of no help to him now and will probably kill him, especially if they are injected.

Getting the beak open is not that hard if you know how to do it. You also need a bird feeding syringe.

you are saying getting the beak open is easy if I know how to do it. THat was a specific question that I asked. Easy for you, impossible for me.
If you have suggestions, please list them. Thank you.

All your parameters are perfect.
What you have to look at is behavior and subtle differences such as night time temperatures, what it is choosing to eat and if it is actually drinking when you soak it.

Also, your low end temp is pretty low. If it hung out there all the time that would be bad.

If you try and force feed it and it can't process the food that is just going to speed along the decline.

Have you checked for parasites?

It doesn't sound good. If he dies, I'd suggest a necropsy to fill in the blanks but it does sound like renal failure.

Sorry.
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I forgot to mention that he was negative for parasites, back in December.
By the way he is now, I could probably say he doesnt drink during his daily soaks because it wouldnt seem possible to get this dehydrated if he was-but it certainly wasnt from lack of trying on my end. I soaked him daily, and made sure the water stayed warm, dried him off after each soak and placed him back in the enclosure.

My low end really is a small area that I just couldnt get any warmer, but I have it pretty boring. lol. All the timothy, water, food etc is more toward the mid range to the high side. He didnt hang out on the low end that much, only every now and then.

I dont know where to set him at right now. He doesnt move so I dont want to further dehydrate him, but I want him warm, I have him in a spot that is reading 95 degrees constant. He used to eat great, the cactus and carrot being his favorite choices,not so much the mazuri but it would get stuck on what he was eating and he would eat some of it.
I think I am so frustrated because I tried so hard to make sure it was all perfect-I didnt want it to become a statistic: another dead baby tortoise due to ignorant owner. *sigh*.

Thanks again, by the way- I appreciate it.

Sometimes even with the best of care, these tortoises may carry pathogens or parasites that optimum temps and good living will not stave off. Sounds like you are doing all the right things. Not sure how long you've had the baby but it may have come to you with the potential to get sick.

Force feeding is not too difficult with larger animals (except ones that are extremely shy) but I admit that babies are not easy to force feed. Typically it involves holding the tortoises head between your thumb & index fingers and prying open the beak, usually with a special device but other safe items can be used (toothpick, popsicle stick)...depends on size. You've got a little guy so a toothpick may do the trick. You wedge it up toward the top beak then lever the bottom beak open. Be careful not to poke the torts inside mouth.

I would strongly recommend having the vet do it and show you the technique. You may get more frustrated trying this especially since it's the first time. Also with a baby, you need to be careful of the presuure you apply to the head and neck.

Either way, sounds like you should act quickly if your guy is going downhill the manner you describe. Email me directly if you need any further help and best of luck. I've been where you are. Had a baby leopard that did the same to me years ago. Turns out being in bins full of babies at turtle shows pass on many things and my little guy just got sick and perished soon after arriving.

Paul

I am very upset because I have had it since the end of November, and he seemed to be doing well. The downhill spiral was very rapid.
I am a licensed vet tech and certified wildlife rehabilitator and I see many animals perish because of human negligence, and tried to be certain that I had covered all research and taken all steps to prepare myself for this little guy. I give out the advice, blahblahblah but it is so different when it is one of your own-I guess. It also makes me wonder how some critters can live in deplorable conditions for years and survive, and then some of them have the ideal surroundings and perish so quickly.
I appreciate what you said. It is very possible that he had some parasite or sickness when I got him that wasnt detected on the fecal smear, that manifested itself over the past two months until it took over. Two months isnt that long of time, it just feels like it when you are preparing food, soaking, warming, monitoring daily.

I think it has made me baby-shy. Perhaps I will purchase a bigger sulcata to get past this teeny little superguy stage. Or not. Given some thought, I may try another baby, but foresee excessive paranoia and worry that it will happen again.

It is very possible that the damage was done before you got it. I believe they can take up to a year or more to die in some instances or they can be on the edge and a tiny little thing can push them over.

If you get another and it is a healthy baby, keep it the way you kept the other one. I can guarentee that it will grow up happy and healthy. The key is getting a good animal to begin with. Everything else you said you did was perfect.

I'm guessing something was wrong before you got it. 2 months is not a very long time at all.

Sorry.
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It sounds like you were doing everything right and are VERY deserving of another tort...

If you do indeed want to forget the sketchy babys and go righ for a big guy I would suggest adoption. There are MANY sub-adult and adult (maybe even a few babys too) sulcatas that need a GOOD home, which you can obviously provide.

If you want a big guy, but dont like the idea of possibly recieving someone elses problem give richard fife a call (at riptarian farms). As far as I know he has 9-10 inch male sulcatas for sale for $150. I talked to him for about an hour a while back (mazuri discussions!) and he definately knows his [bleep]...

And third, if you want the satisfaction of raising a tort from a baby don't be afraid to get another young one. You were doing everything right and a good sulcata or leopard should thrive in the enviornment you provided.

Just my thoughts, Good luck...

-Ian

he has very good pricing on his tortoises. I am feeling babylust and may give him a call. Perhaps I will get two.

Right now the weather here really stinks. It is sixteen degrees outside, so I really would worry about shipping something alive here in case it got lost. Maybe I will have to wait until spring. stupid weather-it could be 70 tomorrow, being Michigan.

Appreciate your encouragement, thank you.

Richard has been around for quite some time and a better reputation you are not going to find. That's the kind of place where it is not 'if' you get a healthy hatchling but 'when' you get a healthy hatchling.

I believe that he does make it up to the larger shows. There are a few up your way that he might attend. That's always preferable to shipping but with Richard you can trust him hands down.

Drop him an email with any questions. He's really cool that way.
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I just worked out my second deal with Richard yesterday...for six of his Ivory Tortoise siblings this time. He is a wonderful man to work with. I highly recommend him for both advice as well as purchases. I am sorry to hear about your loss. Do not loose hope. As everyone else has reaffirmed, you did everything excellently...you were just unfurtunate enough to buy a tortoise with unforseeable - preexisting illnesses. Richard will certainly give you a great deal...and more importantly a very healthy tortoise.

Ian

I just sent him an email. I will let you know what happens.

THose ivory sulcatas are gorgeous. Good luck with them.

Hey, just more info for those critical tort's as yours was in the last few days. The odds are slim at this stage, but to raise them slightly in your favor your veterinarian may like to preform an esophastomy. This is initially invasive, but vertually eliminates the stress of further feedings. Also an intraosseus cathetor may have helped; I've never seen this particular procedure done but it is written in much literature. It may not have been possible with your tiny guy (or practical). Let's face it, even if you could get a 24ga in there how would the pump be able to administer the tiny flow rates required? Even 1ml /hour would be too much.(?)

WIth all this said, I do think you're doing an awesome job and it's always good to hear other techs have reptilian interests