Reptile & Amphibian Forums

ok i stunned the medium rat like laways and put it in his cage....he stalked it and then layed on top of it he then wrapped hiscoils around it and costrictyed but the rat jumped ffree....finally he did it again n finally got the rat ion his the big queeze...and ate it...i got really scared that the rat would bite him....why didnt my snake bite first then constrict?

Stunning prey is an absolutely HORRIBLE PRACTICE. Two primary reasons:

1) It is cruel to the prey animal...PERIOD. Prey animals should not suffer any more than is needed. In a day and age when lawmakers are looking for any excuse to ban the keeping of reptiles, and having organizations like PETA who have some clout and power who LOVE to read things like this to help their cause, this practice is simply terrible. There is absolutely NO reason to stun prey; either kill it using proper euthanasia methods or feed it live (which is NOT good but better than unmercifully whacking an animal just hard enough to make it writhe in pain...IDIOTIC, STUPID, and just plain unethical).

2) Pehaps even more importantly, feeding stunned prey is terribly dangerous to the predator. They get a false read on the animal which is why your burm is somewhat confused. There are also MANY documented instances of stunned prey turning the tables on the predator. When you stun an animal, its first response is to go into full "self preservation" mode which basically means that they become far more aggressive. Obviously, this can lead to many bad things happening.

Your continued questions on proper keeping should really force you to look in the mirror and perhaps be honest with yourself; you are not ready for a burm. Sorry this is so harsh but it is very clear that there are some serious issues with the way you keep your animals. I promised myself I wouldn't respond to your posts but for the sake of OTHER BURM OWNERS WHO MAY ACTUALLY BE CONSIDERING DOING SOMETHING LIKE THIS, I want to set them straight. I alwo want to make it clear that most burm owners are responsible and do not condone these types of practices.

>>ok i stunned the medium rat like laways and put it in his cage....he stalked it and then layed on top of it he then wrapped hiscoils around it and costrictyed but the rat jumped ffree....finally he did it again n finally got the rat ion his the big queeze...and ate it...i got really scared that the rat would bite him....why didnt my snake bite first then constrict?
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

I don't rmemeber asking for your opinion on stunning prey..........I do things how i like it...i don;t feed live because my burm wll probabl;y get hurt and i dont feed frozen because he dont eat them and i dont have access to forzen or storage to put them in....I have no problem stunning prey becaus ei dont care for rodents any way and yes sometimes i feel bad but it is nature the rat will die either way and just because i do not do things like you does not mean you have to come at me like this it is very disrespectful and you need to keep your negative sipositions to yourself...i know many experience herpers beside yourself who do things as 9i do...my burm is very healthy and still growing and is doing fine how i do things.....Eventually i may feed prekilled if he will eat it but he usually wants a little movement...but will not take it if im wiggling it in front of him because he does not feel comfortable but for now i will continue doing things my way becasuse it is my pet not yours.

Jake

You should understand the difference between someone being harsh and giving great advice then someone just being difficult. Rob has as much if not more experience then anyone else here on these forums and the advice he gives is not just good. It is dead on on the proper way to keep snakes. If you can not see that the information he posted was more positive then negative then you are just an insecure person that needs to grow up. He stated that feeding stunned prey is not the best way to feed your snakes. He also stated reasons way. As long as someone makes a statement and then gives specific information to back their statement up then it is much more then just their opinion. You should grow up and realize when someone (with a lot more experienc then you) is trying to help you. Todd

I also forgot to give some advice on switching your snake to F/T. It is your responsiblity to ensure that your snake is well taken care of and giving your snake live or stunned(it is still alive) prey ir irresponsible. You should work on switching it at every feeding. Take a dead prey item and ensure it is thoroughly thawed and warmed up. If you have a temp gun you can shoot a camparison reading from the live prey to the dead prey then utilizing hot water can get the dead prey as close to the same temp. And by utilizing feeding tongs you can wiggle the prey item a little which should stimulate the snake into feeding. Give this a try and see if it works. Todd

Good to see you back on the forums, its been a while. Anyway to give my two cents, there are instances where you can try every trick in the book and a python still wont eat an f/t or even p/k prey item. I own several pythons/boas. The only one that is a problem feeder is my Ball python. They are notorious for being picky feeders but mine takes it to the extreme. Ive done everything in the book and even a few creative ideas and nothing has worked. He only takes live. There are instances where he hasnt eaten in a month or more and will even refuse live. I only once tried the stunning method and I hated it. I have a regard for all animals and its something that Id rather not do again. So long story short, there are situations where the only option is feeding a live rodent which will probably scratch or bite your python, or stunning a rodent enough to minimize harm to your python. Again, I dont have it in me to consistently stun prey but in my opinion, it is beneficial over the risks of giving live unstunned if you have NO alternatives.

>>I also forgot to give some advice on switching your snake to F/T. It is your responsiblity to ensure that your snake is well taken care of and giving your snake live or stunned(it is still alive) prey ir irresponsible. You should work on switching it at every feeding. Take a dead prey item and ensure it is thoroughly thawed and warmed up. If you have a temp gun you can shoot a camparison reading from the live prey to the dead prey then utilizing hot water can get the dead prey as close to the same temp. And by utilizing feeding tongs you can wiggle the prey item a little which should stimulate the snake into feeding. Give this a try and see if it works. Todd

thank you todd but again i have no access to frozen rats or a freezer to put them in.....when i get older n have my own place it will be an option.

This is a dead horse that just keeps getting beat. I've learned that some people, not just kids, think they know it all no matter how much information to the contrary is presented. I'll just throw this out there. I have a dog. It's my dog. I like to kick my dog. I feed my dog once a week. You have a problem with any of this? Too bad, it's my dog and none of your business. If you can't correlate this with your statements about the stunned prey, and your snake, then anything else is a waste of breath.

Hi Jake, look, I know you're well intentioned and love your little Burm dearly. I also know that getting jumped on can be a very unpleasant and dismaying experience.

But here's a little list. I've been stepped on by horses, gotten unmentionable fluids on my hands (you really don't want to know what kind) I've been attacked by chickens, knocked over by dogs, have had some valuable property destroyed (prescription glasses etc), been chewed on by cats and outwitted by mice. And that's not even mentioning the humans involved.

The point is, dealing with animals of any kind is very damaging to the ego. Anyones ego. A great deal of humility is needed. Not only to stay calm and not take it personally when your snake/chicken/cat suddenly chomps you, but to learn or relearn things that may benefit your animal's welfare.

I'm going to suggest you do one thing with Carmichael's response to you, and then give you some opinions on your own reply to it.

Wait till you can look objectively at it. Then look at his response again. Look at what he says, not how he says it. Grit your teeth if you wish, but what he says makes perfect logical sense, even if the delivery was somewhat ah, rough.

Now my own 2 cents. I don't care if you don't like rodents. Feed live if you absolutely must, or find a way to humanely kill the animal completely. It is cruel to just injure the damn thing and leave it twitching.

The suggestion to buy a little freezer was a good one. I'm sure with a little looking you can find one for $50 or even free if you haul. Buying frozen food online means you'll be paying a lot of money at once, but the shipping costs are worth it. You can find high quality grain fed CO2 euthanized and vacum sealed rodents for probably less per rodent than you are paying now.

If you don't have an after school job, look to the traditional kid income techniques, mowing lawns, shoveling snow, walking dogs, Ebaying stuff on commission, etc. That you're on here shows you're familiar with computers. Maybe giving old people internet lessons? (will look great on a resume )

And lastly, now that I've typed into the midnight hour, here's a minor thing. A dog or parakeet is a pet and an albino cal king could sort of be considered one. You can take some liberties with a pet. You cannot take liberties with a burm. You are not a pet owner, your burm is not a pet. You are your burms keeper and your burm is your animal. It's a small difference but a very important one.

Whatever you do, I wish your burm and you well.
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0.2 chickens
0.2 dog mutts (half ownership, only mine when they misbehave)
0.1 Halflinger horse
0.0 Arizona Mountain Kingsnake (coming soon)
1.1 parents
Still searching for 1.0 WC human

I'm not sure what your reading skill level is but if it is anything like your writing, I can see why you have completely taken my posts the wrong way (or just didn't understand them at all; maybe I used too many syllables). You need to realize something, this is a PUBLIC FORUM and if you are going to post a question or even make a comment, particularly if that comment involves giving terrible advice, then you can be rest assured that someone is going to respond so that other folks who just poke in on this forum will be given the correct advice. My harsh tone with you comes from the fact that I work with many kids your age and know what they need to hear (or, in your case, get a little kick in the rear). The kids who work/volunteer for me respect me because they know I am a professional and someone who is respected in the herp world. They know how much I care for them because they are our future and those who work for me do indeed have a bright future. You, my friend, have a lot of growing up to do. Someone mentioned that you want to be a herp vet. Well, let me enlighten you. If you are not prepared to take constructive criticism, or, ready to be open to learning new things (without the pompous attitude like you have in which you think you know everything and never willing to take good advice) then you are dreaming....so, keep on dreaming, keep digging your hole even deeper, and maybe, just maybe, if you keep digging, you may actually come to the realization that the way you are doing things, and, the way you are acting, is shear foolishness. Grow up young man and learn respect!

>>I don't rmemeber asking for your opinion on stunning prey..........I do things how i like it...i don;t feed live because my burm wll probabl;y get hurt and i dont feed frozen because he dont eat them and i dont have access to forzen or storage to put them in....I have no problem stunning prey becaus ei dont care for rodents any way and yes sometimes i feel bad but it is nature the rat will die either way and just because i do not do things like you does not mean you have to come at me like this it is very disrespectful and you need to keep your negative sipositions to yourself...i know many experience herpers beside yourself who do things as 9i do...my burm is very healthy and still growing and is doing fine how i do things.....Eventually i may feed prekilled if he will eat it but he usually wants a little movement...but will not take it if im wiggling it in front of him because he does not feel comfortable but for now i will continue doing things my way becasuse it is my pet not yours.
>>
>>Jake
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

By Eunectes4,

One reason Rob Carmichael is so harsh is because he has noticed people on this forum who do not display that they have the necessary abilities to properly keep Python molurus bivitattus into adulthood. For this reason, he offers his advice on a subject he has more long term knowledge of. Another reason Rob Carmichael can be so harsh is because many people like to wait for responses that support their incorrect ways and will ignor everything else unless it is spelled out for them in large harsh words. This is the attention getter that allows other keepers who may be confused on a particular issue to fully know the risks at hand. A third reason Rob Carmichael is so harsh has nothing to do with his personal feelings about any individual in this forum. The issue is Rob Carmichael is aware not only do the common responders read this forum, but there are people who never post and may in some way take the information shared outside the confines of this room. This being understood, Rob Carmichael is taking the appproach which can benefit the entire hobby and hopefully get a few people who may not be fully prepared to keep a Burmese Python some knowledge to carry with them.
So in conclusion, Rob Carmichael is not against people keeping the Burmese Python in other ways than his own and is not against private individuals keeping difficult species of snakes. It is his care for the hobby which is so extreme that makes him share his knowledge and experiences. It is that Rob Carmichael understands irresponsible people will in fact damage this hobby for good. See, Rob Carmichael's herp keeping will likely never be affected by these bans. He will only have less stress of finding space for another Burmese Python. He is a respected and responsible person who runs an excellent facility so nobody will ever take Rob Carmichaels snakes away. But if Mr. Carmichael can stretch out to the community of snake keepers with a responsible message there may be hope in the world of snake keeping (a truely selfless act by this individual). Maybe some day the hobby will achieve its perfect state. At this time the planets will line up, the laws will be lifted, the Pythons will be secure and healthy, and the people of PETA and the people of the herp keeping community will reach an understanding as they share space under the stars. So in the mean time, quit trying to defend your behaviors which can be a detriment to all of us.

And that my friends....was an official statement from Rob Carmichaels spokesperson. jk

>>By Eunectes4,
>>
>>One reason Rob Carmichael is so harsh is because he has noticed people on this forum who do not display that they have the necessary abilities to properly keep Python molurus bivitattus into adulthood. For this reason, he offers his advice on a subject he has more long term knowledge of. Another reason Rob Carmichael can be so harsh is because many people like to wait for responses that support their incorrect ways and will ignor everything else unless it is spelled out for them in large harsh words. This is the attention getter that allows other keepers who may be confused on a particular issue to fully know the risks at hand. A third reason Rob Carmichael is so harsh has nothing to do with his personal feelings about any individual in this forum. The issue is Rob Carmichael is aware not only do the common responders read this forum, but there are people who never post and may in some way take the information shared outside the confines of this room. This being understood, Rob Carmichael is taking the appproach which can benefit the entire hobby and hopefully get a few people who may not be fully prepared to keep a Burmese Python some knowledge to carry with them.
>>So in conclusion, Rob Carmichael is not against people keeping the Burmese Python in other ways than his own and is not against private individuals keeping difficult species of snakes. It is his care for the hobby which is so extreme that makes him share his knowledge and experiences. It is that Rob Carmichael understands irresponsible people will in fact damage this hobby for good. See, Rob Carmichael's herp keeping will likely never be affected by these bans. He will only have less stress of finding space for another Burmese Python. He is a respected and responsible person who runs an excellent facility so nobody will ever take Rob Carmichaels snakes away. But if Mr. Carmichael can stretch out to the community of snake keepers with a responsible message there may be hope in the world of snake keeping (a truely selfless act by this individual). Maybe some day the hobby will achieve its perfect state. At this time the planets will line up, the laws will be lifted, the Pythons will be secure and healthy, and the people of PETA and the people of the herp keeping community will reach an understanding as they share space under the stars. So in the mean time, quit trying to defend your behaviors which can be a detriment to all of us.

I do appreciate the nice comments. Believe me, I hold no grudges towards those who show extreme levels of immaturity and it is my hope that folks like the person who made the original post will learn a thing or two and, perhaps, in the process, grow up and mature a bit (and hopefully learn something about respect).

>>And that my friends....was an official statement from Rob Carmichaels spokesperson. jk
>>
>>
>>
>>>>By Eunectes4,
>>>>
>>>>One reason Rob Carmichael is so harsh is because he has noticed people on this forum who do not display that they have the necessary abilities to properly keep Python molurus bivitattus into adulthood. For this reason, he offers his advice on a subject he has more long term knowledge of. Another reason Rob Carmichael can be so harsh is because many people like to wait for responses that support their incorrect ways and will ignor everything else unless it is spelled out for them in large harsh words. This is the attention getter that allows other keepers who may be confused on a particular issue to fully know the risks at hand. A third reason Rob Carmichael is so harsh has nothing to do with his personal feelings about any individual in this forum. The issue is Rob Carmichael is aware not only do the common responders read this forum, but there are people who never post and may in some way take the information shared outside the confines of this room. This being understood, Rob Carmichael is taking the appproach which can benefit the entire hobby and hopefully get a few people who may not be fully prepared to keep a Burmese Python some knowledge to carry with them.
>>>>So in conclusion, Rob Carmichael is not against people keeping the Burmese Python in other ways than his own and is not against private individuals keeping difficult species of snakes. It is his care for the hobby which is so extreme that makes him share his knowledge and experiences. It is that Rob Carmichael understands irresponsible people will in fact damage this hobby for good. See, Rob Carmichael's herp keeping will likely never be affected by these bans. He will only have less stress of finding space for another Burmese Python. He is a respected and responsible person who runs an excellent facility so nobody will ever take Rob Carmichaels snakes away. But if Mr. Carmichael can stretch out to the community of snake keepers with a responsible message there may be hope in the world of snake keeping (a truely selfless act by this individual). Maybe some day the hobby will achieve its perfect state. At this time the planets will line up, the laws will be lifted, the Pythons will be secure and healthy, and the people of PETA and the people of the herp keeping community will reach an understanding as they share space under the stars. So in the mean time, quit trying to defend your behaviors which can be a detriment to all of us.
>>
>>
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

Rob, I just want to start this post off by saying that in no way am I taking sides on this matter. I am posting simply to give my two cents. I agree with you when you say that there are many people on this forum that may not be ready for such a dangerous animal. However, I dont necessarily agree with the fact that any person who makes an uneducated comment is in need of a scolding. Now before you take this personal, which I hope you dont, All I am saying is that if you look back at your post your reply was filled with reasons why he should not own a burm simply based on his one choice to feed stunned prey. I am not saying your advice was wrong in any sense because i completely agree, but I dont agree with the fact that many of your posts (specifically the first response to another post) almost always include you telling the poster that he or she should not own a burm. All I am asking is to consider the fact that not everyone is an expert from the second they own a burm, and I agree that many should not own one period, but I do think that your constructive criticism would be a bit more effective if it came in a more helpfull rather than "hurtful" tone. Personally, I have had your comments directed to me and have taken them fine even though they were a bit harsh hehe. But many will not and rather then having them continue to keep their burms the improper way because they refuse to get scolded on a forum that has so much info, perhaps you (an amazing source of information) can help them realize their errors and teach them the proper way of doing things without necessarily putting them down right off the bat. Again...just my opinion
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-=Eddie=-
0.0.2 Burmese pythons. Boomer, Casper(albino)
0.0.1 Gold Tegu. Jacko
3.1.0 Dogs. Sam (boxer), Gizmo (yorkie), snowball(mix),Dexter (Jack R.)
0.0.5 angel fish (don't last long enough to name )

I have to jump in with my two cents here.

First off I had worked with Burms when I worked out with the carnival some years ago. I had decided I wanted one to have as a pet recently, HOWEVER, because of people like Rob Carmichael and other knowledgeable individuals on this site, I learned that I really am not ready to keep a burm as a pet. Not just yet anyway.

I have had ball pythons for some time and wanted to make the jump, but due to space limitations (both in my home and in my freezer for food) I learned to wait. By reading some posts here, it is obvious that there are a few people who need to learn to wait. You can always get a burm down the road, when you're ready. A burm is quite different from a ball, and because of people like Rob, I learned this in many ways.

All I can say is THANK YOU to the good people here, like Rob and a few others, who helped me decide to wait on it. It's the best thing for me and the snake right now. Some people should heed this advice. I have never met Rob, but know he is obviously extremely knowledgeable in what he says.

Sure, Rob is only one man, and has his ways of doing things, as most people do,,, BUT if he says something that deals with reptiles, you better believe I'll stop, read what he has to say, and take it to heart. I suggest that others should do this also. This is not a forum for a pissing contest. It's for all of us to help each other.

Now to you, Bloodboy128, I don't know you. All I do know is that you are only 15 years old and want to become a herp vet. This is great! But you should also understand that when someone like Rob posts something to you, it is because you don't seem to take anyone's advice on this forum, and he is only trying to help you. Please don't just jump down his or anyone elses throat without taking a minute to actually read what they have said. No one is trying to upset anyone here, but you really seem to take offense to almost everything that people say, if it doesn't coincide with what you think is right. Just remember, sometimes we're not right and it's because of good people on this board to help us make it right. You say you don't have access to a freezer for frozen feeders. I would suggest then, try to do something about it. Maybe get a part time job after school or something to buy a mini fridge or mini freezer. Problem solved. It's things like that.... Every problem has a solution.

Sorry to rant, but I just had to jump in here. I'm not trying to suck up to anyone, or to make anyone angry. This is just what I think about what's going on...

Circusfan

there was one thing you said that always rubs me kind of the wrong way. When someone says they want to make the jump to another snake they feel is bigger, harder, more dangerous (this is how I see as what people mean when they are "stepping up" or "making the jump". I would really rather people just treated each snake as an individual species and have an interest for what they are. I keep a variety of species I am extremely passionate about. I do love anacondas but not because they are a "jump up." If was just something I saw when I was 10 that made me love them. I also keep amazon tree boas. These are extremely easy to care for an by no means grow to great lengths or weights. I actualy got into them after I got into Eunectes. I am not saying not to understand you means and abilities before you purchase something...only people should not get animals to look cooler, step up, or anything but an extreme passion for that animal. Sorry to be picky but I see it all the time and I hate seeing news articles like the one in the Chicago Herald talking about how people step up from legal boas and pythons to illegal venomous snakes for bragging rights. It makes us look bad.

Sorry I should have clarified what I meant. I fully respect each animal for what it is. What I meant by "making the jump" to a burm, was simply going to get a snake that I have loved for years. Not because it's bigger or anything, just that I love the way they look and I love the animal. However, I learned from this forum that I was just not ready yet to get a burm. As I stated in my last post, I just don't have the correct space and means to take caer of such a large snake. Not yet anyway, but someday.

Sorry again, bad choice of words. I was not intending to "jump to" a burm because they are more advanced to care for, or get larger than most snakes, or anything at all like that. Only that I wanted to make the jump to getting an animal I admire.

Hope this clarifies a little bit.

Circusfan

There's another way to look at "the jump". The jump and stepping up can be very good things.

I like Arizona Mountain Kings and I also like Scrub Pythons. I would be an idiot to choose a scrub for a first snake, so I'm going to care for the milder, smaller species first to gain some experience, helping me prepare for the more difficult species that also knocks my socks off.

Stepping up to a more demanding species from an easier type isn't always for tough guy (or girl) bragging rights, but simply a common sense technique to accquire attractive species as skill permits.

I agree completely that people should get snakes that they admire on their own merit, but I've always thought of stepping up as an experience and capability thing, when the keeper finally is confident that they can care for the species they love, and it will thrive.

'Course this is the first time I've seen a real discussion on the philosophy of stepping up and maybe I'm just an innocent idealist.
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0.2 chickens
0.2 dog mutts (half ownership, only mine when they misbehave)
0.1 Halflinger horse
0.0 Arizona Mountain Kingsnake (coming soon)
1.1 parents
Still searching for 1.0 WC human