Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hello all,

I have a question I'm just a little curious about, and would like if you could share your ideas on this.

I have a small collection of snakes (five total). Of the five, one is a kingsnake and another is a milksnake. The two of them are housed in separate Vision #211 cages; which are stacked one on top of the other.

Each of them is very young, and as is normal with young colubrids, each is very jumpy and defensive. Each of them musks me when I pick him/her up, though my kingsnake tends to calm down a bit more once in hand compared to my milksnake.

Of course, I don't enjoy being musked, and I'm wondering why it is happening. I understand that young snakes tend to do this, and so I wonder - how long is it before I might expect to see them start to calm down.

There's also a particular side note that I'm curious about. Some time ago I had only a kingsnake - and it never musked me, not once. I'm wondering if, now that I have both a king and a milk in close proximity, does the scent of the other (the musk perhaps?) make each of them that much more nervous, such that it is enough to cause them to musk each time I go to pick them up?

What do you think? And do you have any advice for getting them to quit musking and calm down?

Thanks very much,
- Mark
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The musking is a defense mechanism that hatchlings (even the juvenile ones and adults alike) use to fend off "enemies" (i.e. humans)when they feel threatened. In my experince with honduran milksnakes hatchlings, they actually stop "musking" me after a couple months...I think it is because it is attributed to the following.

1) I handle them daily and do hold them and let them crawl through my hands/wrists for at least 5 minutes ( i usually average about 10 minutes of my time for each snake ). Handling them daily will make them get used to your own smell so quickly that they will feel at ease with you. I know that for a fact since I sometimes let my friends handle them and they musk them but not me.

2) Handling a snake can arguably be a form of art. What I mean by this is there is the proper way of handling them...and that means holding them gently, WITHOUT the "jerky" movements from the handler. I acknowledge the fact that they do move fast but you have to move with it fast and yet in a "smooth" way (again, no jerky movements. The other thing to remember is never hold them by their end tail or near their cloaca. Nor should you be grabbing the head. Concentrate in handling them in the mid section and if they start crawling away from your one hand, anticipate its movement and use your other free hand to hold/catch the middle portion of the snake's body once it is off of your other hand.

3) Your surroundings are also important... to the extent that the snake does not see other movements other than yours. For example, do not handle a frisky hatchling if let say there is a dog jumping or running that is within the snake's visual range. Or say you are outside and it is windy and the snake can see trees blowing or can feel wind blowing... that sort of thing. You need to be in a calm area when you are handling a restless little one!

Oh, to answer your other question...even if you have a kingsnake with you, the musking is not because of that... the musking is because it is threatened when handled.

hope this helps.

Ray

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RAY

Thanks Ray,

I'm glad to hear that it should only take a couple of months to calm them down.

One thing I am surprised to hear is that you handle your juveniles daily. I have been under the impression that daily handling is too much handling, and that it would in and of itself be a source of stress for the snake (which I want to minimize, especially with my Pueblan milksnake - who is a very shy feeder).

I understand your point about musking being a defense mechanism (employed when the animal feels threatend), for example, when being held by a large warm blooded mammal (me). But do you think that the scent of another snake's musk could also invoke this defense mechanism (especially when that 'other snake' is a 'snake eater')?

As for handling being a form of art - I very nearly do agree with you on that. It certainly does take a firm, patient, gentle touch to win over a snake's trust. My 11.5' Burmese python (I've had since hatchling) is a shining example testament to that.

I also keep my surroundings calm whenever I can (which is almost always). My home is very quiet, with little to no commotion to speak of. It is actually almost ideal, as far as not having distractions for the snake.

I might just try daily handling for a little while and see how that goes. Hopefully it will work out well, though I'll be sure to watch closely for signs of any increase in stress, just in case.

Thanks again,
- Mark
.

>>The musking is a defense mechanism that hatchlings (even the juvenile ones and adults alike) use to fend off "enemies" (i.e. humans)when they feel threatened. In my experince with honduran milksnakes hatchlings, they actually stop "musking" me after a couple months...I think it is because it is attributed to the following.
>>
>>1) I handle them daily and do hold them and let them crawl through my hands/wrists for at least 5 minutes ( i usually average about 10 minutes of my time for each snake ). Handling them daily will make them get used to your own smell so quickly that they will feel at ease with you. I know that for a fact since I sometimes let my friends handle them and they musk them but not me.
>>
>>2) Handling a snake can arguably be a form of art. What I mean by this is there is the proper way of handling them...and that means holding them gently, WITHOUT the "jerky" movements from the handler. I acknowledge the fact that they do move fast but you have to move with it fast and yet in a "smooth" way (again, no jerky movements. The other thing to remember is never hold them by their end tail or near their cloaca. Nor should you be grabbing the head. Concentrate in handling them in the mid section and if they start crawling away from your one hand, anticipate its movement and use your other free hand to hold/catch the middle portion of the snake's body once it is off of your other hand.
>>
>>3) Your surroundings are also important... to the extent that the snake does not see other movements other than yours. For example, do not handle a frisky hatchling if let say there is a dog jumping or running that is within the snake's visual range. Or say you are outside and it is windy and the snake can see trees blowing or can feel wind blowing... that sort of thing. You need to be in a calm area when you are handling a restless little one!
>>
>>Oh, to answer your other question...even if you have a kingsnake with you, the musking is not because of that... the musking is because it is threatened when handled.
>>
>>hope this helps.
>>
>>Ray
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>-----
>>RAY

Hey Mark,

You're welcome! I do handle my snakes pretty regularly. Maybe I was too literal when I said "daily" ... but of course, if the hatchling is "in shed" (no handling until shed is complete from cloudy eyes to actual shedding) or when it just ate a meal (no handling for a full 24 hours after eating), then I let them be.

At a local zoo here that I volunteer my time once a week, all the milksnakes and kingsnakes are handled by volunteers everyday (except on situations mentioned above). Once the snake is used to being handled almost daily, it does not stress the animal anymore. I sometimes watch the late news on TV with a snake just sitting on my arm.

Also, we were trained at the zoo that after handling one snake, you wash your hand before handling another snake. I know it is a pain in the neck washing hands in between handling snakes but it is an effective way of preventing any transfer of diseases between snakes. Your snake may look healthy and such but you never know whether it does carry something and can easily pass it on. Even just one mite hidden in between scales can be passed on from your hand to another snake (unless you wash your hands first). When a snake gets sick or gets infested by mites, if you follow the instructions above of washing in between handlings, then there is a good chance that other snakes are not infected at all.

Also, by doing that, the musk from a previous snake is washed off before you go and handle the next snake.

If your snake stresses more than the average, try handling it not daily but maybe once a week for starters, and then gradually move to a more frequent periods like once every 3 days..with the goal of maybe close to daily...and see how it goes.

The ones that are really at ease with me are the ones who are even willing to feed off my hand...meaning, i would put the thawed pinky on one hand and with the snake on my other, I would let it smell the thawed pinky and when it does bite into it, i don't move and let it do its own thing. It's kinda cool actually...

Anyway, if you have more questions, feel free to do so.

Thanks.

Ray

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RAY

What I mean is (from my subject line), I did wash my hands. I always do (both before AND after handling any of my snakes).

The thing is, last night I had a particularly problematic time with my milksnake, who was unusually defensive. He not only musked me, but he pooped on me too. I held him for quite a while after that, until he chilled out.

I think he was so unusually defensive because I had been handling my kingsnake just prior to that - and my kingsnake had musked me! Of course, I washed my hands, and as well as I ever do. It seemed to me though that I could still barely detect some of that musk smell on my hands, even after washing (musk is potent stuff). Now, if I could almost still smell it I'm sure that my milksnake could definitely smell it - that is, having the acute sense of smell that snakes are gifted with. Perhaps a different type of soap, or double washing, or something would help with that (that is, if it is an issue).

For now I'm going to only handle each of them on completely different days, at least until they each chill out. Then I'll try handling them on the same day again sometime - if the problem comes back, well, that will solve one mystery.

As for feeding in hand - I'd love to do that, but I've got a long way to go yet.

Thanks Ray,
- Mark

P.S.
Do you know anything about whether milksnakes are rear-fanged and slightly poisonous? I thought I heard something to that affect a long time ago, but find it a bit hard to believe. What do you think?

.

>>Hey Mark,
>>
>>You're welcome! I do handle my snakes pretty regularly. Maybe I was too literal when I said "daily" ... but of course, if the hatchling is "in shed" (no handling until shed is complete from cloudy eyes to actual shedding) or when it just ate a meal (no handling for a full 24 hours after eating), then I let them be.
>>
>>At a local zoo here that I volunteer my time once a week, all the milksnakes and kingsnakes are handled by volunteers everyday (except on situations mentioned above). Once the snake is used to being handled almost daily, it does not stress the animal anymore. I sometimes watch the late news on TV with a snake just sitting on my arm.
>>
>>Also, we were trained at the zoo that after handling one snake, you wash your hand before handling another snake. I know it is a pain in the neck washing hands in between handling snakes but it is an effective way of preventing any transfer of diseases between snakes. Your snake may look healthy and such but you never know whether it does carry something and can easily pass it on. Even just one mite hidden in between scales can be passed on from your hand to another snake (unless you wash your hands first). When a snake gets sick or gets infested by mites, if you follow the instructions above of washing in between handlings, then there is a good chance that other snakes are not infected at all.
>>
>>Also, by doing that, the musk from a previous snake is washed off before you go and handle the next snake.
>>
>>If your snake stresses more than the average, try handling it not daily but maybe once a week for starters, and then gradually move to a more frequent periods like once every 3 days..with the goal of maybe close to daily...and see how it goes.
>>
>>The ones that are really at ease with me are the ones who are even willing to feed off my hand...meaning, i would put the thawed pinky on one hand and with the snake on my other, I would let it smell the thawed pinky and when it does bite into it, i don't move and let it do its own thing. It's kinda cool actually...
>>
>>Anyway, if you have more questions, feel free to do so.
>>
>>Thanks.
>>
>>Ray
>>
>>
>>-----
>>RAY

Hey Mark,

Okay then, if you are washing your hands in between handlings, then that's certainly a good practice to embrace. As you said before, if you can still smell the musk after washing, then the next snake might very well detect it. But I am not sure if the smell of the musk from a previous snake is 100% certain to be the reason for the reaction of the second snake that you are handling. I still believe that it is more from lack of handling since I rarely get musked after the hatchling is more than 2 or 3 months old.

Anyhow, to answer your question: "Do you know anything about whether milksnakes are rear-fanged and slightly poisonous? I thought I heard something to that affect a long time ago, but find it a bit hard to believe. What do you think?"

Milksnakes are non-venomous. I don't know any type of milksnakes that are "partially venomous". Milk snakes are constrictors and kill their food by suffocation and in the old days, Milk snakes are so named because it was once believed that these snakes would enter barns and steal milk from cows...hehehe. It's true that in the ancient old days, people do believe that. Of course, this is false; snakes only drink water. They would get sick if they were to drink milk. Most milksnakes also have sharp teeth; no cow would stand still for that! Their teeth however are located at the back and are generally small and stout...it is used to help them swallow their food/prey. I personally have not tried to open a milksnake's mouth by force to locate some back teeth but maybe when I get back to the zoo, I'll ask a zookeeper to help me find its back teeth.

That's it for now. Thanks for your questions. They're great questions indeed.

Later...

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RAY