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Is it hard to start a leuistic project. What are 66 percents and 100 percents im thinking about starting a leuistic project but dont know what hets to buy . Thanks

If there are, any i wiss you all the luck breeding them.
But please do your homework first before starting a breedingproject like this.
Thre are to many "breeders" that are selling leucistics that really aren't leucistic at all.
Leucism is one of the most missunderstood there is.

Try the search option, there have been some posts about the leucism recently, lot of interesting stuff and a lot of different opinions.
Verry good for learning some more about leucism.

Later,
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Starting a genetic related breeding project is not hard but the breeder has to acquire as much knowledge as possible before they consider even breeding for a phenotypic trait. You also have to be prepared to outcross every generation b/c if the Leucistic trait came from the same source(which it did) then that means that they are closely related and hence the reasoning for the outcrossing.
Many people get two Hets from the same clutch and breed brother and sister together to get some Leucistics. This is very bad practice and I have seen several people at shows selling hatchlings whose parents are from the very same clutch. This only setback the progress that Kevin has made with his marketed Leucistics. IMO to responsibly breed Leucistics who have to search long and hard to find suitable dragons to outcross them too, at the same time retaining the light color and faded pattern. This is not easy. There are many other factors but this is just one.

As far as 50% ,66%,100 Hets you can check this link out:
www.newenglandreptile.com/genetics_simple_recessive.html
This should explain it
-Randy
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www.AlphaDragonZ.com

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Edited on January 29, 2005 at 10:03:37 by phwyvern.

Marketed leucistics AKA Hypomelanistics can be bred the same way as any hypomelanistics.
But there are marketed leucistics that don't even have clear nails, wich means that they aren't even hypomelanistic.

But breeding true leucistics the same way as the marketed leucistics/hypomelanistics is imo not possible because imo they would have 2 recessive traits.
The outcome will be the same as it is breeding snowboa's.
And apart from leu x leu breeding you will be breeding with double het x double het or leu x double het, and not what is alway ussumed as it would be. (the same as hypomelanistics)

With a double het x double het breeding you would only have a pecentage of 6,25 leucistic per clutch en not the 25% that's always sayd..

Many say that true leucistics do not exist and never have.
Imo there have been made some big mistakes concerning the breeding of treu leucistics, if they were true leucistics instead of lightcolored hypomelanistics ofcourse.

But it's just my opinion.

later,

Duncan
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Thanks alot everyone for the help i think im just going to try to start my own high colored dragon project. Im going to mix a hypo pastel with a yellow red desserx orange german giant from dachiu!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You know what I think? You should do what you want to do. I personally have some Leucistics. And they are the most beautiful dragons I have ever had. To me they beat out any reds or other colors that are out there. But that is only my opinion. I just know my Leus are different than any snow/hypo I have ever own or seen. Though I agree they are not a "True" leucistic there is something different about them than any other morph. Don't let others discourage you just because there are some that are out there who lie about what they have just be educated in what you get and breed. I have to disagree that breeding hets do not get you 25% as I have seen many, many clutches where at least 25% were leucistics when breeding 100% hets together.

thanks im confused now your leuistics are so pretty. I think im going to do both leuistics and coloreds!!!!!!!!! where did u get ur leuistics from or did u breed them?

The leucistics out there are Hypomelanistics the shouldn't even be named leucistic because they aren't.
The leucistic dragons that you are talking about are marketed leucistics because they are not treu leucistics.
That is why you get 25% percent clearnailed hypo's when you do a het x het breeding.

When Hou have a true leucistic dragon with the 2 recessive traits (hypomelanistic axantic)they are all white and have absolutely no color because the melanophores and the xanthophores can't synthesize pigment.

Sure you will have 100% hets when breeding a leucistic to a normal, but those dragons would be all double hets, het for hypomelanism and het for axantism.

When you breed double hets together you won't get 25% leucistic offspring but only 6,25 percent.
With that i mean true leucistics, all white dragons.

when when breeding marketed leucistic hets together you will get:
25% leucistic
25% normal
50% het for hypomelanism.

When breeding treu leucistsic hets (double hets), you will get:
6,25% Leucistic
6,25% Normal
6,25% Axantic
6,25% Hypomelanistic
12,50% Het Axantic
12,50% Het Hypomelanistic
12,50% Hypomelanistic Het Axantic
12,50% Axantic Het Hypomelanistic
25% Het Hypomelanistic Het Axantic

If you would make those hets from a snow line the difference between the 6,25% Leucistic,6,25% Hypomelanistic and the 12,50% Hypomelanistic het Axantic would be very hard to see because those dragon will be very light in color also.

Ad those three percentages togther and there you have youre 25% aigain what looks like 25% leucistic but is in fact mostly hypomelanistic or hypomelanistic het for axantism.

Later,

Duncan
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I get what you are saying now. I never disagreed that the marketed Leucs aren't truly leucs. But they are still different than just your normal snow or hypo. YES they are hypo but to a much whiter degree and have the clear nails to boot. I think they have been named Leucistics to long now to take it back but to just call them "hypos" isn't fair either, that's all I'm saying...

Everywhere on the market you see leucistics popping up, that don't match the leucistic fenotype

Stupid to put those dragons on the market as leucistic when breeders know they are only hypomelanistic.

Luecism stands for a certain genetic defect.
Doesn't matter what nametag someone/well knownbreeder puts on a dragon, it will be just a name en no genetic defect, this is wrong and will only bring more confusion.

It does't matter how long those hypo's have been named leucistic, the fact is that it is the wrong name, so don't use it then!...not so difficult i think.
When you know a dragon is not leucistic, don't name him/her that way!!! name it what it is....
People who sell their dragons like leucistics when they know they aren't just want to make easy money IMO, don't see another reason for doing that.

Later,

Duncan
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Nope sorry can't agree with you here. I don't even plan on really producing Leucs but my breeding project is with a leuc x Transparent. But I'm still not going with you that they are strictly a hypo. I don't think everyone is going to retract the name because you don't like it so probably better get use to it.

This has nothing to do with me.

The fact siply is that they just aren't leucistic, simple as that, they do not have the genotype and fenotype to match.
therefore shouldn't be named that way.
These are just facts, wether you like them or not.

Most of them are hypomelanistic and that there is something else going on with some of those dragons is true, imo not in a hypo/recessive sence, more likely a dominant trait.
This is the case with many treu hypomelanistics on the market only nobody really pays attention to that.
But just because a dragon is hypomelanistic and has no or little color, is no reason to name a dragon a leucistic.
Because treu leucistics can't synthesize pigment wich means there are al white and there are recessive traits involved, and wich also means that this has to be proven first before slapping the leucistic nametag on it.
Why not name them something else, don't see what the problem would be, simply change the name.

Marketed leucistic breeders don't have to agree with me.
I really don't care if they do or not but stick to the facts not what comes out best for you selling those dragons.

Marketed leucistic (hypomelanistic) x transparent is a nice combination to start something.
What are your plans wih the dragons of this crossing?

later,

Duncan
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This topic has gotten really off topic but since you seem to know your genetics I will ask your opinion. I have been asking this same question to many "genetic" knowers but seem to still get altering opinions. My thought is if breeding a "marketed" Leucistic to a transparent then I would get basically a baby that is a double het for both but did not show the traits for either. Only when breeding double hets together would it produce a "marketed" leucistic transparent. This is causing me some troubles as I hate inbreeding so I am currently working with another breeder who is also breeding a Leucsxtransparent. Some people though believe that breeding a Leucxtransp. would produce a percentage of hypo transparent along with percentages of hets and double hets for both at the same time. What is your opinion?

That is exactly right.... 1 in 16 on average will display both traits, a percentage will be translucent het for m.l., a percentage will be m.l. het for translucent, double hets, and 1 in 16 will be "normal".... These of course are averages and not "right on the nose" percentages. you could have more than one m.l. transclucent or none at all.

Have you seen the hypo-pastel translucent that Paul Morlock produced? There is still a pic in the kingsnake photo gallery.

Later,
Robert
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Great spirits have always been recieved with violent opposition by mediocre minds. Albert Einstein

Well that would be great news actually to not have to breed double hets together. My question is though, if it is true then why does it seem that when you breed a transparent to a normal or even a "marketed" leucistic to a normal all hatchlings are only ever 100% hets. If that is not true then please correct me. but if it is then why would that not apply in the case of a trans x leucs breeding? I have seen the pics that Paul has and they are amazing. Curious though if double hets were bred what would be the percentage of hatchlings that would be Leuc, trans, both, etc. Thanks for all the help. I love the genetics side but don't always make hide nor hair of it.

Kendra

Transparent x normal = 100% het for transparent clutch
Leucistic x normal = 100% het for Transparent clutch
Leucistic x Transparent = 100% het for leucistic and het for Transparent clutch (100% double het clutch)

So yes you would have double het dragons that look like "normals" depending on what colors you're breeding with offcourse.

The outcome of hat double het x double het breeding would in % be:

6,25% Hypomelanistic Transparent
6,25% Normal
6,25% Transparent
6,25% Hypomelanistic
12,50% Het Transparent
12,50% Het Hypomelanistic
12,50% Hypomelanistic Het Transparent
12,50% Transparent Het Hypomelanistic
25% Het Hypomelanistic Het Transparent

With Hypomelanistic being the marketed leucistics and the Transparent being hypoirridichypoirridistic or whatever the exact name is.

But these are just percentages, don't expect te outcome to be 100% like this, it probably won't.
This is just what you get out of the punet square.

The next problem what you wil have is to kwnow what dragons have what sort of genotype since some dragons will have a different genoype but the same fenotype en you will only be proving something by breeding them.

You will only see 4 fenotypes, but there will be 9 genotypes.

6,25% Hypomelanistic Transparent

6,25% Normal, 12,50% Het Transparent, 12,50% Het Hypomelanistic and the 25% Het Hypomelanistic Het Transparent will look the same on the outside.

As well as 6,25% Transparent and 12,50% Transparent Het Hypomelanistic.

As well as 6,25% Hypomelanistic and 12,50% Hypomelanistic Het Transparent.

Since the transparent will probaly bring more color in the genes of the double het animals the difference between 6,25% Hypomelanistic translucent and 6,25% Hypomelanistic and 12,50% Hypomelanistic Het Transparent would in the end be more obvious imo.

It Could be that i've made a mistake somewhere because im writing this right out of my head.
"In the bleu" will correct me, im sure, hehehehe

Later,

Duncan
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