Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I was admiring the pic Tom Stevens took of his 2het Brooksi and more than looks I was impressed by the size of it. One of the things that appeals to me about Kings is their potential to reach impressive lengths and when you combine that with great looks its a helluva a combo. In all the years of keeping Kings Ive realized they dont all have the potential to reach large sizes regardless of the subspecies. Last year when I got my GA Eastern Kingsnake from Will it was a normal sized hatching of about 12-14" or so. He just seemed to never put on much weight and always looked lean and long and thats basically what he did he just grew length wise.
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Here is a pic of him at 5 months old and near 30"


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Now I dont power feed at all (who can afford it lol) and he had a sister that I got as well and she stayed normal sized. They both ate the smae amount of food but he shot up 3" longer than her right away while she added more bulk. I have another King thats growing like this from NC but not at the pace of the GA animal. So here is my thoughts... is this snakes size (I know its not unique others have had snakes this big at this age) a genetic trait ? If I breed him to another non related female will the babies be het for "Big King" ? Im wondering because I saw that a guy has popped out a Giant Leopard Gecko from his colony and it proved to be a recessive muatation. I think its Ron Tremeper. His L Gecko's are massive almost double the size of a normal. Anyway just random thoughts I dont really know if this is the case but I do know Will said he has never had a hatchling get as big as mine did in a year in which you would think some would. Zee has a male thats related to mine from Enge thats near mines size but a little smaller so maybe it is recessive ??? Does anybody else have any Giant Kings that got very large right off the bat without power feeding ?
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Here is a pic of the same snake about a year later and now 45"

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Here is another shot of a sister of his from the 2004 season. Its hard to believe these snakes are a year apart. The bigger one was the same size as the little one when I got him as a hatchling in sept of 2003 (he was a end of August hatch)

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Keith, I know you're watching and recording the length of your kings. I'm keeping track of their weight(all weights in grams), the amount of food offered, eaten, and the weight of the food consumed. The following are the 4 Georgia animals I got this past year from Will.
GA-01f
Date Weight F. eaten Food offered F. Weight
1/2/2005 32 1/2 2 fuzzy 6
1/9/2005 34 all 1 fuzzy 6
1/12/2005 38 all 2p 6
1/16/2005 38
1/18/2005 40 all 2pinks 6
1/23/2005 40 all 3pinks 10
1/26/2005 56 all 2f 12
GA-02m
1/2/2005 24 1/2 2 fuzzy 6
1/9/2005 30 all 1 fuzzy 6
1/12/2005 32 all 2p 6
1/16/2005 36
1/18/2005 34 all 2p 6
1/23/2005 34 Blue
1/26/2005 36 Blue
1/28/2005 36 Shed
GA-03f
Date Weight F. eaten Food offered F. Weight
1/2/2005 22 0 2 fuzzy
1/9/2005 24 0 1 fuzzy
1/12/2005 22 1/2 2p 3
1/16/2005 24
1/18/2005 24 1/2 2p 3
1/23/2005 26 1/2 2p 4
1/26/2005 30 all 1f 6
GA-04m
1/2/2005 24 1/2 2 fuzzy 6
1/9/2005 30 1 1 fuzzy 6
1/12/2005 34 all 2p 6
1/16/2005 38 Blue
1/18/2005 38 all 2p 6 Blue
1/23/2005 38 all 3p 10 Shed
1/26/2005 46 all 2f 12
Here's the data for the peanutbutter floridana I got from Rainer earlier this Summer. The cut&paste from excel isn't quite aligned.
PB-01m
1/2/2005 94 all 3 fuzzy 20
1/9/2005 106 all 3 fuzzy 22
1/12/2005 122 all 3f 20
1/16/2005 130
1/18/2005 126 all 3p 10
1/23/2005 126 all 1m 16
1/26/2005 140 1/2 2m 16

I feed twice a week on Sunday and Wednesday. I had a fuzzy shortage mid month, but that has been taken care of. It will be interesting to watch these animals grow. Is there a quick way to get length measurements? Serpwidgets is cool, but I struggle with resizing photo's and such, so I rarely use the program.
Bob Bull

I use serpwidgets. If you have a hard time with the resizing thing then send me the pics Ill be happy to resize them for you. I wish I had kept track of weight but I only did length plus I didnt start recording length until I think Janurary so he was 6 months old by then. Ill post my measurement data when I get home tonight.

Keith
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GA-01f 20.0"
GA-02m 19.7"
GA-03f 18.1"
GA-04m 20.8"
PB-01m 27.3"

I am loath to take photos of all the animals bi-weekly. How often do you think I should run the collection through serpwidgets?

Bob Bull

Here is GA-04m.

Georgia Notch!!!!

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Notice the red is bordered by yellow, another tri-color kingsnake!

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Hey! LOVE THOSE SNAKES! It's good to find someone else who has some Will Still stock! We'll have to keep in touch, since I have a pair of 04s' from Will as well (similar to that last pic). It'll be intersting to see how they grow! Take care,

Zee

>>Notice the red is bordered by yellow, another tri-color kingsnake!
>>

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Bob Bull

N/m

I take a measurement pic once a month. Anyway here is my data.

8/2003 – 11-13” (approx.)

3/26/2004 - 28.49"

4/7/2004 - 29.86"

5/4/2004 - 31.90"

6/1/2004 - 34.07"

6/27/2005 - 35.48"

7/31/2004 - 37.76"

8/26/2004 - 39.28”

9/12/2004 - 40.35”

11/2/2004 - 41.39”

11/12/04 - 42.15”

12/29/04 - 44.02”

1/25/05 - 45.57”

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...just based on Will not having any get as large as yours in such a long time. It's worth exploring. Is there any way of knowing how many WC kings might be expressing this trait? It would obviously provide an evolutionary advantage, so I'm surprised it doesn't occur more.

I do want to clarify though that Tremper Giants are not proven recessive. Ron actually came out with news recently determining that his giant line is a co-dominant trait. But if you ask around other leopard gecko breeders, they'll tell you that it's more likely a line-bred trait. I can direct you to some lengthy discussions about this on Fauna if you're interested. There's still quite a bit of controversy about the subject because people have paid big money to buy "hets."
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chickabowwow

Interesting.... I didnt know that about the Giants. I had only seen them on his website. I bet there are some pissed folks then!

As far as the King is concerned his grandfather is a 6' plus animal and his grandmother is well over 5' and they are both wild animals. His parents are 5' animals and are brother and sister. My guess is its probably just a trait but it just seems odd how grew so fast without power feeding.

Keith
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Rapid growth might only be evolutionarily advantageous if there is a guarranty of plentiful food. If food is scarce slow growth would be more advantageous. If an individual grows faster than its food supply can sustain than the animal might starve at some breaking point. In that sort of a scenario slow growth would pay off in lean times.

Rapid growth also would be advantageous if larger prey was more plentiful than small prey. Both situations probably exist through out the range but I would think that in general rapid growth would not be selected for in too many instances.

In captivity rapid growth is selected for by the breeder, so thats a whole different story.
Bob Bull

But you're making the correlation that rapid growth means increased food intake. Keith stated that he wasn't power-feeding his large snake, so I'm assuming the food intake wasn't any different, thus not a factor in its rapid growth. Obviously, if a snake can reach a larger size eating the same amount of food as a smaller snake, the larger one increases its chances of survival because it is less vulnerable to predation.

I also have to think that younger animals have higher dietary requirements than than their older counterparts. For the herps I've raised from hatchling-hood, their appetite DECREASES as they age, so they would actually consume less food as they mature. As babies, it's their job to eat and eat some more. They have less fat reserves to burn.

By the way, I'm not trying to be argumentative here. This is definitely an interesting discussion.
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chickabowwow

///But you're making the correlation that rapid growth means increased food intake.

Not neccesarily, larger snakes require more food than smaller snakes,however the ratio of food to size is less. So a large snake say 300g may need a 16g mouse once a week to survive, while a small snake around 100g might only need a 6g fuzzy. The smaller snakes eat more for their size than larger snakes, but less in total mass/volume than larger snakes.

///Keith stated that he wasn't power-feeding his large snake, so I'm assuming the food intake wasn't any different, thus not a factor in its rapid growth.

No knock on Keith but he's not running a controlled experiment. Without detailed feeding records including what was offered, consumed, and the weight of food items consumed we cannot assume equal feeding. I'm still not sure what the hell power feeding is.

///Obviously, if a snake can reach a larger size eating the same amount of food as a smaller snake, the larger one increases its chances of survival because it is less vulnerable to predation.

If, the animals consume the same amount of food, and one grows faster it most likely has a more efficient digestive tract, either through more efficient enzymes/proteins or a physically "improved" digestive tract. Predators particularly avian predators are more apt to cue into a larger snake, while smaller snakes can fall victim to smaller predators like shrews. I'm not sure rates of predation are the limiting factor.

Ecology, when boiled down to its essence, is the study of the flow of energy and nutrients through a system. Lack of consistent food sources is theorized to be a reason for diminutive life forms on isolated islands. On a few islands such as Komodo it is advantageous to grow rapidly to escape cannabilistic predation, thus the large size of the monitor lizards found there, but in general islands result in smaller forms of mainland animals.

///By the way, I'm not trying to be argumentative here. This is definitely an interesting discussion.

Yes it is.
Bob Bull

...I have two '03 sulfur phase brooksi from Mr. Krysko. One male and one female, and I think they may be unrelated, although I'm not sure. When they arrived as small hatchlings the male was 13" and the female was 11". Not only that but the male was a piglet at the dinner table. The female was a little more reluctant to feed, but never refused, just didn't take as fast. Anyway, they have both eaten the same amount of meals since I've had them. The female has completely left the male in growth and she is almost twice his girth. The female is now just under 4', while the male is closer to 38". It is amazing that different growth patterns seem to be in the genetic makeup of everything.

That is the most dramatic difference I have ever seen in a clutch. On one hand I would not assume the smaller one would in the future yield slow growing offspring. On the other hand I know when people who produce larger or faster growing snakes than average...., they will try to find others similar to create a line of super sized snakes. Bull snakes come to mind with the 277 locale.... Tom Stevens

I doubt max size (or growth rate) in E Kings is a single gene trait, so therefore it can't be dominant, recessive, co-dominant, etc.

It seems more likely it is a quantitative polygenic trait (like it is in humans) and therefore the additive effects of several genes result in the overall size.

You can, of course, breed for a line of giant kings by breeding the largest males to the largest females of the same age group. They should produce large, fast growing offspring. Over several generations you would be able to increase the average size of your line.

There are several problems with this plan however -
1. Snakes that grow quickly may have other problems, such as reduced reproductive potential.
2. In order to select the fastest growing/largest kings, you would have to have some way to compare them. Therefore, if they were kept in different locales with different feeding regimens, you would have trouble separating the "nature vs. nurture" aspects of their size and growth rate.
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Chris Harrison