Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Is the future of varanoculture about hormones injection and genetic alteration? Don’t get me wrong I have no issues with any of this, as it’s been don with almost all domesticated animals throughout mans history. Being a life long varanophils and witnessing trials and errors of many keepers, I cant help wondering how on earth captive monitors will benefit from this approach, just my opinion but 90% of keepers cant get there monitors to cycle simply because there husbandry is off, monitors need constant supplies! you cant just forget about them like many do with snakes, you need to keep on top of your game with heat, food, water, its pretty scary to think how many will provoke females to cycle regardless of there condition. I clearly remember how one man got treated because he multi-clutches many species, he did this only with good husbandry and common sense, without the use of drugs, yet the entire varanids world blamed him of mistreating monitors. Maybe one day it might be common practise to inject monitors as part of a regular breeding programme, who knows? I bet one day we will forget how spirited niloticus where! How horn use to stands erect! How flavis can dig out scorpions! How indicus loved water! How prasinus climbs! We will forget because they will forget how to act like monitors. When reproduction is artificial then natural stimuli are obsolete, this leading to sterile husbandry, glass, plastic, rack system, without anything to relate to! An organism loses its primer identity and changes to adapt.
Eventually we will make them to mans liking!
My problem is I like them as they are now, pure blood.

Bravo.....but if a chicken is injected to reproduce more and if this has been going on for ages .....have chickens lost the ability to act like chickens?

just curious

I really don’t know I have never seen a wild chicken! Much less study there behaviours.

you should really go back and read my post there was never anything stated about wild chickens. Chickens will act like chickens in the wild or in captivity right? just like your monitors act like monitors in captivity or in the wild right?

think about it

Everything can be abused, but those who abuse there animals in one way or another will do it with or without hormone injections.

I applaud bob for taking the initiative to develope something that will have a place in varaniculture even if it never becomes mainstream as you're so worried about.

Chickens still act like chickens (in response to the other posts)
Chickens are FAR from extinct. How long do you think a bird as dumb as a chicken would have lasted if humans hadn't seen the need to reproduce them?

As far as varanid's conforming to human needs you need not look any farther than dogs, cats, fish, cattle ect. Selective breeding is what fuks up an animal down the family tree, not how it is bred. Go to the corn and leo forums to discuss that one.

Finally, as with all drugs, if this is to be used in the future outside of the scientific circle (aka the public) then it will be under veterinarian supervision.

"How long do you think a bird as dumb as a chicken would have lasted if humans hadn't seen the need to reproduce them"

Im sorry but chickens are dumb because we made them that way, that was Steves point, we turned them into what they are today, if they were dumb before we came along, they would never have been here. I agree with him, if hes doing it, them how many other people are doing it, or have tried it? Im sorry, but I enjoy my monitors being monitors. I used to keep my old monitors really lousey, but learned over the years what I was doing wrong, I see the difference, the massive difference in them compared to the old ways, Id never go back to clean sterile cages, etc, they werent monitors set up that way, they were like chickens, just sitting there waiting to die, after a while they give up, then it isnt long before they die. I guess if youve never seen a monitor set up properly you wouldnt understand, you could never go back to torture like that once you see a happy monitor. Besides as far as inbreeding goes, or bad breeding down the line goes, think about this, every red ackie in North America is related to each other from the same pair, every Bearded Dragon in this country are related, they all came from the same offspring from German zoos, its what we are faced with, no matter we made them that way.

I have just lost respect for his posts. Its seems all his posts in the past were a sham.

All the health and multiclutching he has attributed to this monitors is now only attributed to hormone use. Also his claims to further the understanding of "tree monitors" is all for nothing. We already know what hormones can do.

As funny as it sounds, he still after all this time, has not hatched a single monitor. How funny is that, considering how easy it is. Cheers FR

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha....

I just want to thank you all for participating in my 'study'. The whole point of this post, was to see where people stood on this apparently super-contraversial topic. Meanwhile, we got a pretty good debate out of it all, with logical points being made by both sides, not to mention the laughs. While I do feel it would have only gotten funnier if this thread was allowed to continue, I felt that it is necessary to come clean and tell the truth...

I do not utilize hormones or other chemicals for that matter with any of my monitors, nor would I ever contemplate using them on my animals. I do not think that monitors should be produced in such a 'factory type' situation. They deserve to be kept and treated as the monitors they are.

Going back to FR's original question, which I had started the whole debate from, I suppose the reason why my female has been so productive, is based on my husbandry skills, and allowing my female to be healthy to the point, where she is comfortable behaviorally, and physiologically, to cycle, and produce eggs. This is why my animals continue to breed, I have apparently found the 'niche' that they seem to do best in, as far as reproduction goes. WHile I have not found that niche for any of my other species, it is all a matter of learing, and testing new things.

Most people set their animals up in a fashion, where, even though their animals are not succeeding, or doing well, they fail to fix any problems or adjust their husbandry accordingly. My husbandry is in a constant state of change, where I am constantly adapting it to the needs of my animals, according to the behaviors and cues my animals show me.

So I hope that there wasn't anybody who ran out in the last 24 hours or so and bought some PGH's, and shot up their animals, as although it sounded clever(muwahahhahaha), and possible, it surely would not work. While it probably would force ovulation, you most certainly would never receive viable ova, as ova require certain physical conditions in order to mature. This has to do with food and energy uptake. So the chances of administering the hormones at the opportune moment is very unlikely to happen, and I would not recommend anybody trying it out for themselves...

So again, I apologize if anybody took me seriously, and to clarify, I certainly do not experiment with hormones on my collection of frail, easy-to-kill animals. I am not a person who is money hungry when it comes to monitors, and am not someone who would ever want to mass produce them through possibly harmful methods, just to turn a buck. My animals are doing what they are doing, as far as their reproductive cycling goes, I am doing something in my husbandry which favors that..

Again, thanks for the laughs, and for the debate. Cheers everyone, have a nice day..

Bob
TREEMONITORS.COM

But each time you do this sort of "entertainment" I do lose a little respect for you. You have posted as "other" people, you have set up false subjects, you have not told damaging lies. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm You sure are easy to bore. Maybe, you should get out of monitors, the reason is, after a while, there is not much new.

As you know, People on the otherhand, are fun of fun goofy behaviors.

As far as you setting them up "best" as you say, I do wonder how you know what best is??? Maybe "best" it double the amount of clutches and larger clutches. Also, before you consider what best is, maybe you should hatch some first. I have said for over a decade, that monitors are very easy to get eggs from.

Don't misunderstand me, I do think you will get babies, its only a matter of time. That is, unless you lose interest first. You see, all there is to it is to stay with it.

I do agree with your approach of, not sticking to a regime, but instead, move to whats needed. As this has been my approach all along.

It was so hard for people to understand, they would say, But FR, last year you said(this and that) My responce was, yea, that was last year and hopefully I will say something different next year.

About "damaging lies" that I mentioned above, Well, sometimes it will damage monitors, but in this case, its more about damaging you, as for now on, I and others will not know what to believe. Remember, a lie, is to purposely decieve. And that you did. Cheers FR

Next time ill stick to opinion based on observation, buy the way this male seems under weight is it possible he’s not feeding well, can it be because of the light stomatitis sing on his upper lip, HAHA just kidding! cant be after all they are in breeding condition right?

Shucks, I was getting ready to run ou and get some of that stuff for my wife to get her to .... hahahahaha
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Ed

There are chameleons, pythons, and monitors in my jungle room.

I was suprised anyone believed you. I must say I was laughing but I wonder how the people feel that argued to defend you?

They took the time to defend a post or a point of view that really was a fabrication of lies. That has to suck. I would much rather be one who argued against it then for it thats for sure.

Becareful when calling wolf, one of these days your call may have meaning but go unanswered.

Hmm, anyone know the street address of Bob here? I'd like to pay him a visit with my animal tranquilizer and put him in a cage. I've come to find you a pitiful little boy in desperate need of being hit with a very big paddle.
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1.0 Savannah Monitor - Artimus
2.0 Emerald Swift - Jesus, unnamed
1.0 Baby veiled Cham - Sir August De Winter 1-20-05 RIP
1.0 Green Iguana - King Arthur
1.0 Rose-hair tarantula - Bill
1.0 Basilisk - Adam
0.1 Water Dragon - Lady