Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I've heard that keeping a Pacman in sloped gravel with water at one end is more sanitary for the frog and reduces impaction risks etc. I was wondering how you would clean such a tank? The gravel at the bottom makes the tank extremely heavy, and loose gravel makes it impossible to just pour out the water and refill it. Should I do partial water changes every so often? Feedback's appreciated.

I'm curious as to how this would reduce impactions?
In general unless the system is heavily filtered with the return water flushing through the gravel to prevent buildup of waste these sorts of setups are impractical and difficult to keep clean. If you want to decrease the risk of impaction, feed it all food items off of tweezers.

Ed

It would reduce impactions in the sense that large gravel can't be swallowed whereas soil and other plant substrates could be. The main reason for my desire to switch is not impactions or cleanliness, but rather the aesthetic appeal. I've also read in R.D. Bartlett's book that such a setup would be ideal, and was just wondering how to maintain it. The store I bought the pacman in had him in a fish bowl filled with tiny gravel and water (which I know is horrible) but in that filterless set up, how did the pacman survive so long?

Hello,

I keep my pacman in an almost all aquatic in closure. I keep about an inch of water in the cage at all times with the exception of a small area above water..and a small deeper area (3 inches) my pacman never leaves the water...he just chills in the shallow end and eats what ever I place before him. I use plants[philidendreums (sp)] the keep the enclosure clean...so far works pretty good....water isnt always clear but doesnt smell near as much without the plants. Just a thought.

Chris
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1.1 KSB -Jack (anery)& -Jill (Normal)
1.0 Leopard Gecko -Dudly
1.0 Pacman Frog- Frigity
1.1 Rats -Killer(albino)- Twitch (normal)

Do you know how often they were
1) feeding the frog and
2) changing the water?

The setup you describe in the petstore was the way people kept them in the late 1980s and early 1990s. It works if you change the water pretty frequently. These frogs produce a large amount of uring and this needs to be removed from the cage.
If you are using rocks that are too large for it to eat, you are using rocks that are bigger than its head right? ANything smaller can be consumed.
As I said, in my previous post, the sure way to avoid substrate impactions is to feed off of tweezers.

Ed

That is definately not a good idea. Horned frogs need to burrow into the substrate, as that's what they do in the wild. My big horned frog spends 90% of its life buried, and if that's what she wants to do, then I think it'd be wrong to keep her in water and gravel. Also gravel can be swallowed during eating, and since these frogs have such sticky tongues, that would easily happen.
The coconut fiber is not an unsanitary substrate at all. I do not let mine get overly moist, and it never molds.
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2.1 Ball pythons
1.0 Boa Constrictor Imperator
0.1 albino Cranwell's horned frog
1.0 bearded dragon
1.0 Tiger salamander
1.1 breeding Clawed frogs
1.0 black kittycat
3.1 Oscar cichlids
0.1 Paint horse mare

I reread your post, and you would not really run any risk from impaction by using larger, heavier gravel.
But these frogs have it in their nature to burrow. It would never be a good idea to make an animal live in an unnatural environment simply for our viewing pleasure. I know that they are not the most intelligent creatures, but they have natural behaviors which should not be prevented from occuring!
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2.1 Ball pythons
1.0 Boa Constrictor Imperator
0.1 albino Cranwell's horned frog
1.0 bearded dragon
1.0 Tiger salamander
1.1 breeding Clawed frogs
1.0 black kittycat
3.1 Oscar cichlids
0.1 Paint horse mare

Agreed. Besides, a wter enclosure would have to be cleaned more frequently since it would probably be alot harder to keep clean(as EdK said). And if I'm not mistaking, wouldn't the Pacman absorb the toxins(possibly produced from waste etc) easier in water?
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CokeOfMan

I'm not sure to which toxins you're referring, but if kept clean I'd imagine the toxin level wouldn't be different of that in substrate. also, yes you do need to clean more frequently, but a water filter reduces this need, and it's MUCH easier to clean a tank full of water and gravel than a tank full of damp coaconut fiber. I made the switch because the eco earth would always be stuck to my pacman's eyes, nostrils, etc. It was just a drag to switch the substrate all the time and if kept at a recommended moisture level, eco earth WILL mold and also attract gnats and mosquitos in my experience. My frogs have burrowed themselves into the gravel (somehow, I have no idea how) I've heard of terrestrial frogs thriving for years on simply wet paper towels that are changed every day. I don't know how true that is though...

The other problem is that the frog can get abrasions burrowing through the gravel on the hind feet. These abrasions can lead to infections such as red leg.

Contrary to popular wisdom, aerobic soils contain more nitrifying bacteria than can live in a filter. Soil and soil like substrates are much more efficient at processing wastes. When using a filter, the break in time to cycle the tank can run as long as 60 days during which the frog is exposed to potentially lethel levels of ammonia and nitrite.

Ed

Very interesting point. I think I'll make the switch back. Is there a compromise?

If you have a big enough cage you can always include a filtered "pond" area for the frog or incorporate a stream. The only problem you may have is the frog moving enough stuff into the water to clog the filter.

Ed