Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I've had the occassion recently to view a number of herp wholesaler lists. I was troubled to see the hundreds and in some cases thousands of wild caught reptiles, amphibians and invertebrates imported on an almost weekly basis.

Can anyone explain how these dealers are able to capture and import thousands of animals on a weekly basis? I assume that the countries that these animals are exported from out of must be almost completly unregulated?

Any insight would be appreciated. Thank you.

They pay a fee to the goverment agency in that country that gives out the permit to do this. The permits allow them to than capture,export animals.
Some of these countries you can buy kids so no wonder you can capture and export so much.
On the other hand the wilderness in some of these countries is on borrowed time . There is less and less every year so captive breeding of these animals by individual pet owners might sadly be their only hope.

That's sad. I agree that the habitats that these animals are raided from are on borrowed time. That's why I'm trying to to something from the animals and their habitats.

I agree if you save the land you save the animal. In Malaysia the trees are being cut down at a fast rate and the land is also being used as farm land and housing.
There are groups like the Wild life federation, etc that buy land and keep it wild. When I was in Panama I even saw land that National Geographic had bought to keep wild.
American based organizations from what I saw are the ones that buy land to keep it wild even tho its America that gets critisized intruth its American charities that do what they can to keep the land wild.
Good luck.

You have to be joking!! Ok I will play along. Hmmm lets see you are a member of king snake so that would lead one to assume that you have at least one herp. Were do you think it or it's parents, grandparents etc. started out? How about hmmm ya thats it... as IMPORTS or W/Cs from the US. The Exotic trade is a $310,000,000,000.00 a year industry yes billion, and guess what you support it. Here is another point while we are at it as I write this, at this very moment there is some @#$hole lobbiest in Washington D.C trying to pass some law that will make it even harder to collect, keep, trade, sale and breed exotic animals, yes that includes herps. That lobbiest and his little hacks look for every edge they can get , oh like lets say a copy of this "question" you posted. He will stand before the house and say "look even the hobbiest think its wrong to allow this, just look at this email, we collected this off king snake." Here is an idea if you dont want to support the market because your little heart bleeds for all these animals (that by the way if not collected for the live trade would be headed for the skin trade) then box up your collection and donate it to a school or send it to a dealer so he can make a living off of it. But what ever you do STOP leaving the GOV. more fire power! It only hurts those of us who feed our families with those imports. If you can name one exotic in captivity thats blood lines dont go back to an import I will apologize to you here in this forum.

I really don't want to turn this into a discussion about whether the mass importation of wild animals is right or wrong, moral or immoral. I started the thread to gain some insight into how the process works and to find out why there are not more regulations.

Then you should have gone about it a different way. What people like you dont understand is that the way you come across in your search for knowledge impacts this industry very negatively. Kind of the same impact the hippies had during Vietnam thier actions and attitudes really served no good purpose only because of the way they went about things. By no means was my responce to you about right or wrong, it is to inform you how your attitude and the way you come across in a forum like this can impact many people in a bad way. If you want to know how it works contact the US Department of the Interior, You can request info packets and stats they are in charge of all import and export of plants and animals. You will find I am not alone in these feelings. One last thing let me give you an example of how the search for knowledge can be blown out of proportion, A woman in AZ saw a salt water shark in a pet store, so she called animal controle to find out if the big 9 inch man eater were to be flushed down the toilet could it end up harming some one? It is now completely against the law to have any fish salt or fresh that can be called a shark. The intelligent Gov. of that state used this womans stupid question to pass a law to "protect the animals and the people". Make no mistake there are no stupid questions, Just stupid ways of asking them.

Of course I don't know either of you but your reaction seems a little harsh doens't it? How can you say you love reptiles when you don't even consider mass importation a problem? There's pro's and con's to it but let the guy ask a question why don't you? Granted your opinion is your opinion, but your paranioa of the gov't creating long overdue (albeit missguided) legislation is less than flattering. Do you think that MP's actually visit kingsnake? Just like we need to import another 10million wildcaught ball pythons right? Your justification of wild-caught didn't answer the original question. Captive breds do have family lines from the wild, but once a sustainable, genetically diverse captive breeding population is derived, what is the use of further straining wild populations?

As for what you can do to help, unfortunatly all I have is opinion's like the other guy. You're from wisconsin? try contacting the chicago herpetological society as they're quite large and would have some cloute. As for who to present action, I would think you may have the most success with the organization that governs USA importation. Next would be the UN and or WWF. Just a thought.

Your right there is no black white answer. It depends on the country,area,etc if collection is acceptable or outrageous.
Some areas the animals are on borrowed time the gvmt in those countries couldnt care less about the wild areas or cant do anything about it due to no jobs,population growth.
Animalfinders( the sn speaks for itself) feels mass collection export of any live organism is our right and your a Socialist commie if you dont agree with him.
Malays

Thanks for the input. I'll contact the chicago herp society.

I see so you find it bleeding heart liberal if people dont want animals depleted . I agree in some areas the actual jungle,etc is being depleted so perhaps collecting is for the best but in some it isnt and this MASS collecting,exporting is outrageous.
I think its a great dea to regulate the import,export . A great exapmle is Australia.
Ofcourse any regulation at all that could protect wildlife in your views is insane. Lets collect from every where as much as we want and who cares . By your mentality we have the right to deplete what we want.
That other person was just asking how to save wildlife. Your just concerened on how to destroy it.
Collecting in places that are losing wild areas might be a necc evil but not just taking what we want from ANY PLACE that we feel like it which is your "point"
Some area should ban all collecting like American deserts for one . These areas are still for the most part wild but reptile collectors feel its their right to TAKE whatever they want.
Malays

Posted by: wireptiles at Mon Feb 7 13:34:30 2005 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

I really don't want to turn this into a discussion about whether the mass importation of wild animals is right or wrong, moral or immoral. I started the thread to gain some insight into how the process works and to find out why there are not more regulations.

You have a valid concern dont let anyone say other wise. Write your local politicians,President,etc tell them your looking for .
One thing I feel is that every single import without exception should be treated by the import seller for parasites,etc and vet check.
This will atleast make sure the animal is healthy ,cant infect native populations and will have greater chance to live in captivity.
If the buyer doesnt want to pay that charge they werent going to do it themselves and they simply shouldnt own it. Imported animals will be treated better this way.
The people caught ILLEGALY importing,selling should face jail time seriuos jail time not just a fine.
Again I am not against importing. I have been to places that I feel wild areas might be gone in 5 yrs or so but I am for responcible importing and in some areas there is no reason for it and shouldnt be allowed at all.
Malays

Guys and girls,

what all of you have said in your posts is partially right and should in my opinion be at least thought about in my opinion. Consider this:

1. The importation of wild caught reptiles into the country has been on a steady decline for the last 9 years.

Why? Simply most people have gotten the word that captive born and bred animals are less likely to have problems and make better long term pets. Which is where the majority of the animals are sold, into someones home as a pet.

2. Outside groups do use things such as this diatribe between people with different points of view against us as a herping comunity to further the goals and agenda they have which is usually not in the hobby's best interest.

Why? We make it easy for them to split us apart by simply trolling a loaded question. They usually get radical responses that sometimes are not well thought out as we are all so passionate about our herps.

3. Wild collecting is responsible for all of the different lines in the hobby and in itself should not be considered a bad thing. If we want long term viability of our captive animals new genetic pools are something we periodically need.

Why? If a natural resource such as reptiles is a renewable resource that the people in the country of origin can use to better themselves, then if monitored and regulated properly the value of the wildlife is understood and hopefully protected by the indigenous people. Over harvest is not the major problem that the animals face, but habitat destruction is. This destruction will only stop when the resources recieved from the land out produces the income from habitat degradation.

Bottom line to me is simply I try whenever possible to buy only captive bred and born animals. Additionally when I do buy wild caught animals I realize up front the pains and problems that come with them. There is indeed an increased cost in time, money and effort to get them to a point where they are good captives. If more people realized this they will be less and less demand for wild caught animals by the general public, even if they are cheaper at this time than captive born aimals. I hate even the concept of throw away pets.

I support the regulations that take an approach that is compatible in what is best for the wild populations, but not those that are knee jerk reactions from some legislative body that has no idea of any of the ramifications of a law he/she may pass. It is often much easier to just ban something than to put thought into writing comprehensive laws/regulations.

Involvement in the process as versus being viewed as loud mouthed mis-informed folks that cannot find common ground even within our own ranks is paramount.

A perect example of how you can make the process work for you is what happened here in Texas. Political groups here decided that private use of any indegenious wild life was a very bad thing and should be banned. On the surface this might appear to be a good thing for wild populations of animals, but when implemented there was going to be a complete ban of the SALE and collection of any wildlife within the state. A study group (of which I was a member) was set up and it was found that the animals that were being taken from the wild were NOT impacting the viability of the wild populations here in the state. Therefore it was recommended by the Texa Fish & Wildlife commision that the majority of the regulations be relaxed and collection etc. be allowed with periodic monitoring from the biologists. This makes sense and was a logical and reasonable approach to the problem.

Sorry for this being so long, but I hope everyone realizes the importance of finding common ground among differing opinions. The great thing about this internet stuff at least we can find each other now days, years ago we were all isolated and easy targets for some of our detractors such as the current program of mis-information being put out byt the SPCA.

John Cherry
Cherryville Farms

Cherryville Farms - Reptiles

Thats a good point. Something about forums tho that get tempers to flare in calm people lol.
Since your here. I wanted to ask you if any difference in tempermeant in the types of house snakes you have?
Yrs ago I chatted with someone that bought kings from you loved them . I myself was curious about the house snakes.
thanks.
Malays

Glad to hear they liked the animals, as far as the house snakes are concerned all th color phases are about the same with the albinos being a little more flighty as hatchlings if anything. As youngsters they are all a little hard to handle, but as they grow they are as calm as any of our kings etc. I think it has something to not with the small starting size as hatchlings. LOL

Take care and stay in touch,

John Cherry
Cherryville Farms

Cherryville Farms - Reptiles

Thank you very much.
Malays

John, thank you for your input. You make some very valid points.

What I think needs to happen are import/export regulations that would only allow a few hundred animals per year out of a given country - except in cases of habitat destruction. This would allow for a steady stream of 'new' animals in order to keep blood lines genetically stable.