Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hello everyone. We really need some advice. We purchased a home in Elliot Lake, located in northern ontario. We moved into a condo corporation, a townhouse (Big mistake). Before we bought our home, we made sure there were no restrictions on keeping reptiles, and there was not any by-laws against keeping reptiles in the corporation, or in the city of Elliot Lake. We had been living in our home for about a month, and our neighbour right across from us was looking through her second floor window into ours, and saw some of our cages. Among other things there was a petition passed around to enact a by-law against the keeping of reptiles, and we did not find out of this petition until a meeting was held to discuss the issue. Apparently everyone else in our condo corp, (which has about 100 homes) was shown it but us.
At this meeting we agreed to remove our animals, but we would have to wait until the weather warmed up to do it (around May). They refused, and voted against us keeping our reptiles, and a by-law was enacted by the CONDO CORP.The city of Elliot Lake passed a by-law about 2 weeks later. We were told that the Grandfathering Law would be upheld by the city, but the condo corp says we would NOT be covered under the Grandfather Act. They have now given us until Febuary 4th to get them out. Our weather here is freezing, and to transport our reptiles in this cold would mean they will, if not die, become sick. We tried to explain that it was too cold to move them at the meeting, but they refused to listen. We have gravid snakes at home. We also have 2 big dogs at home, whom the neighbors next door obviously do not like. We have had, on numerous occasions complaints about them. We have contacted a lawyer who has told us that the only thing he could do is buy us time. Does anyone have some advice, legal or not? It would be greatly appreciated to hear from you on this matter. Thank you for reading, Kristy and Frank

I'm sorry . thats to bad all i can think of is to drive them out yourself in a heated car.

I'm sorry to hear about this, and I can't really help you with the legal situation - but maybe offer some advice on moving the herps. Get yourself a big (or a few big) igloo ice chests. then get some of those instant hot heating packs - wrap in many layers of newspaper. Put a few layers of newspaper in the bottom, then put each snake in its own individual pillow case and tie it shut. lay the first one on top of the newspaper, then i'd put some more newspaper and then the next snake bag - layer them. however keep the heat pack off to the side surrounded with crumpled newspaper. These get to over 100 degrees. Close the ice chest and they will be fine in there for a couple hours.

when I got my Chondro I went to Birmingham - it was close to freezing that night - and this is how I transported him back home and he's happy as a lark. Keep your car somewhat heated also, this will help.
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-Chris

The reason mainstream thought is thought of as a stream is because it's so shallow. -George Carlin

A fool doesn't learn. A smart man learns from his mistakes. A wise man learns from the mistakes of others. Which one are you?

My Website
N. American Rat/Corn snake care sheet I wrote
Information on substrates

Current snakes:
0.1 Licorice Stick Black Rat (Lola)
1.0 Black Rat (Frankie)
0.1 Texas Bairdi (Rosa)
0.1 Blue Beauty (Brunhilde)
1.0 Green Tree Python (Monty)

Calling the police on the neighbor for being a peeping tom?

........Tough situation. The cooler idea seems like a good one. What a horrible shame that folks can get so freaked out over our snakes. Makes me really glad to live where I do. I have to admit...In your situation I would seriously consider moving.
I know...Not a very realistic option for most of us, and some would say a pretty extreme suggestion...But if they can mess with you in that way, what's next? Keep us posted. Duffy

I would also consider moving. It sounds to me like they all already want you out and things won't get better.
The problem with condo's and anything with a community by-law type organization is they are essentially their own little fascist country. They can do pretty much whatever they want to the people living there and there tends to be nothing state or federal law can do.

Face it, you're being harrassed.

Personally, I'd cause some serious hell, but thats just me. I don't deal well with unfair issues like that. Ever read the book "Get even"?

If you move into a neighberhood that wants you to join a homeowners association, when you sign the contract to purchase the house, they try to make you think you have to - but you do NOT have to join. A homeowners association can tell you to do everything, right down to painting your house a certain color and what you can keep in it. In general, I hate them. They could pull something like this as well with no reptiles... however if you dont join they cant do crap to you.
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-Chris

The reason mainstream thought is thought of as a stream is because it's so shallow. -George Carlin

A fool doesn't learn. A smart man learns from his mistakes. A wise man learns from the mistakes of others. Which one are you?

My Website
N. American Rat/Corn snake care sheet I wrote
Information on substrates

Current snakes:
0.1 Licorice Stick Black Rat (Lola)
1.0 Black Rat (Frankie)
0.1 Texas Bairdi (Rosa)
0.1 Blue Beauty (Brunhilde)
1.0 Green Tree Python (Monty)

Do these homeowners associations or the condo authorities have the right to come tromping into your house at any time to see what you got?

I mean, I'd just move the animals to another room and say, "Yup they're gone."

I never told the landlady at my old apartment that I had animals. If they had caused a problem (never did), I would have paid for any damages accrued or fix the issue at hand.

They can get a search warrant with the police present to come in and look to make sure if they question it, i believe. But from my understanding, they can make rules and regulations, but no enforcement unless they bring a law suit.

I think i'd do what he suggested... hide them let the people come look and then put 'em back out... but make sure to keep your blinds drawn! because the neighbors will be looking!

Honestly it sounds like they may be having more of a problem with your dogs and since nobody wants to get rid of their own dogs and so many people have them, they figure they'll punish you by making you get rid of of your reptiles.
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-Chris

The reason mainstream thought is thought of as a stream is because it's so shallow. -George Carlin

A fool doesn't learn. A smart man learns from his mistakes. A wise man learns from the mistakes of others. Which one are you?

My Website
N. American Rat/Corn snake care sheet I wrote
Information on substrates

Current snakes:
0.1 Licorice Stick Black Rat (Lola)
1.0 Black Rat (Frankie)
0.1 Texas Bairdi (Rosa)
0.1 Blue Beauty (Brunhilde)
1.0 Green Tree Python (Monty)

I'd put all the animals in pillow cases, sterilite shoeboxes or whatever. Hide them all in a closet or something (any of those ignorant fools would assume the animal couldn't fit in there or would make a fuss, or even die), unplug all the cages and lights and stuff and make it look like they're going into storage (stack all the equipment inside the cages in a jumble)...and invite someone in to check.

Then when they go, set it all back up again.

If they try to search every little spot, refuse politely saying something along the lines of: "You have the right to take my beloved pets from me, but you don't have the right to invade my personal privacy."

Even better, set up a closet or two with some REALLY embarrasing personal products...suppositories, feminine hygeine products, condoms, creams for questionable rashes, etc.

Then if they insist on searching your places, bring them to the first closet and say something like: "Since you are obviously so interested in my private life, let me give you a run down...Sometimes I have real problems with constipation which is why I have the suppositories...I've tried XXXX and YYYY, but to no avail...I've tried just grabbing and pulling, I've tried lubricants, etc...
...Sometimes I have a really bad rash on the inside of my legs which is why I use this cream. Want to see the spot? ...its in an awkward place, can you tell me if its cleared up yet?..."

etc etc...

Go into VERY explicit detail about everything. Take as much time as you possibly can. Bore them to tears (and hell, gross em out too!) with your "problems".
Each time say very simply the "Since you are so inclined to invade my privacy..." line again and again.

Hopefully they will take the hint very quickly.
If they continue to be obnoxious, tell them exactly why you said these things: "I feel you people are completely inconsiderate and ignorant or the truth. Since you are unable to take any hint that I have given you, I am telling you straight out: You may have the right to steal my beloved pets from me, but you do not have the right to intrude into my private affairs. I am now asking you politely to leave my property."

If they refuse, then call the cops.

Just out of curiosity, does anyone know how easy it would be for them to get a warrant to search the house? I can't imagine any judge would write any association warrants just because of a suspicion of some wrong-doing.

If this was me, I'd also make them pay
Try glass insulation in the dryers...lol.

Just kidding folks.

I had thought I had posted to this earlier but apparently not. Whether you belong to a homeowners association or not is irrelevant (depending on your state laws). In Florida you are subject to their authority. If they sue you-it will be expensive and you will lose.

I know this because my brother is a lawyer and my wife is on a Association's board of directors.

N-I agree in spirit with what you suggest, but NEVER ADMIT YOU HAVE WHAT THEY ARE LOOKING FOR. Any delays refering to "my beloved pets" will make them search harder. Better to be as indifferent as possible when it comes to mentioning the snakes and just delay for the reasons you mentioned.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

There has to be SOME law thats on their side. does your brother or your wife have anything to say on this?

How can something like a homeowners association or Kondo Korp. be fought on this pittance of an issue?

A homeowners association is mandatory by definition. If it's voluntary it's called a "neighborhood association."

Actually that too is subject to state-county laws. While membership is often not mandatory, you do not have to join a homeowners association to be under their authority. Since these are often set up in conjunction with the builders their rules are usually in the contract when you ought the house. In either case they are cionsidered part of the agreement you made upon purchasing the house.

Another thing about H.A.'s In Florida if someone gets injured on your property, the members of the board of directors are considered Libel and can be sued. That is one of the main reasons the courts usually back the association.

Now an interesting situation happened when we bought our house. The orrigional H.A. had become defunct. A local realtor reserected it 15 years later (she had kept the entity alive-though not active).
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Man that really sucks bad!!! I hate hearing about stuff like this. Some people are just so uneducated when it comes to reptiles. I run into it all the time here in KY. I get the "The only good snake is a dead snake!" more often than not.

Makes me glad I live out in the county on my own property where I can pretty much do what I want! Heck I can pee off of my front porch if I want to and nobody around to tell me any different!! LOL

My next house will be on about 100 acres and my house will be right smack dab in the middle, with all kinds of tin and cover laying near the woodlines of course!!! LOL

Keep us posted on what is going on in your neck of the woods, What a crock.
Brian
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RATS
1.0 Corn snake "Warpath" (KY locale)
1.0 Black rat snake "Havok" (KY locale)
1.1 Black rat snakes "Reaper and Mystique" (MO locale)
1.0 Albino Black rat snake "Malakai" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Everglades rat snake "Deadpool" (Dwight Good stock)
0.1 Greenish rat snake "Rogue" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Yellow rat snake "Wolverine" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Grey rat snake "Punisher" (White oak phase)(Dwight Good stock)

MILKS
0.0.1 Eastern Milk snake "Cable" (KY locale)
0.0.1 Eastern/Red milk intergrade "Omega Red" (KY locale)
Good luck and Happy Herping
Brian

Maybe you should talk to another lawyer. It seems to me that since they changed the law after you bought (I'm assuming you purchased) your home, you should have some legal recourse. If there's a grandfather clause, that really should protect you. That's what they're for - so that people in situations like yours don't end up persecuted, or in circumstances that cannot be resolved. In short, sounds like your lawyer isn't so great.

Insofar as transporting them is concerned, there must be a Canadian version of the society for the prevention of cruelty to animals, or something similar. I'll bet that if you contacted them, they could do something for you, even if it was only to make a big noise. But they could probably help you transport the animals safely, if that's what it came down to.

At any rate, I'm very sorry to hear about your situation. Ignorant people suck.

People like that are un-educated. They think all snakes and reptiles have to be dangerous in some way. My neighbor wouldn't let me catch a great basin gopher out of his yard till i showed him the picture of the snake in a field guide and showed him the lable "non-venomous".

This is a small scale example of what is referred to in political science as Tyranny of the Majority. Ironically it may also be referred to as tyranny of the minority. One individual, or minority, seeks a policy based on personal interest or prejudice, and gets a majority coalition together to pass it by exploiting the ignorance, biases, common identity or preconceptions held by that majority. This is accomplished by providing or eliminating selective information, presenting information out of context, or just plain lying. It seems you may have been excluded from a meeting where the dangerous or weird natures of your pets were presented to the masses. Systems of checks and balances can reduce this effect. I love democracy but it is not always synonymous with justice, freedom, or equality.

Randy
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Firehouse Herps

...for all the support and advice from everyone. We will eventually move away from the ignorance of people we happen to live beside. They have now extended the date to March 1. We'll keep everyone updated.

You never did say what type of snakes you have.

I saw this add in reptile magazine (Brett Nelson) 317-637-0700 attorney at law. This guy deals in wildlife related civil and commercial litigation. I would get a second opinion.

Sounds like trouble staying there. I would sell and move.

Good luck….