Reptile & Amphibian Forums

One of my two young frogs suddenly died a few weeks ago, and today, my little Brad just followed. No idea why. Was active and eating well up until this point. I posted just a few days ago that I heard his first chirp. Maybe he was trying to tell me he was ill, heh. I'm really crushed.

I'm not going to repopulate the vivarium immediately, but I am wondering if anyone here has any suggestions of any other animals that would be suitable for a 10 gallon vivarium. Obviously, things are scaled to dart frog size. Are there any other small-enough frogs or other amphibians/reptiles that like 80ish humid environments?

Link to pic of the viv:
img.photobucket.com/albums/v630/vamppire/Leucomelas%20Dart%20Frogs%20-%20Brad%20and%20Janet/Image25sm.jpg

Thanks

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~ Vamppire
Queens, New York City

That's the pits! I would make a check list of anything unusual going on the the environment, or in the house. Has anyone used insecticides or disinfectant sprays in the room? Have there been aerosols such as paint, varnish, or epoxies? How long have you had the frogs? I assume you were feeding them daily with calcium/vitamin dusted fruit flies and they were eating well? Has the humidity remained above 80% and the temperatures between 65 at night and 80 during the day? No signs of disease, such as bloating, skin tears or lesions? They didn't get skinny or stop eating before dying? They had places to hide and and you misted with spring water? These are just some of the things I can think of. Also check with the dealer you got them from. Maybe he or she has some suggestions about what could have gone wrong. A healthy frog that has been calling is not prone to just drop dead. The picture you posted was of a healthy appearing frog, and from what I could tell, the environment looked moist and good.

Above all don't get discouraged with darts. I've had only one unexplained loss, and this was probably because I kept the D. castaneoticus together in a ten gallon "nursery" tank as juveniles and the one was probably intimidated and stressed out. But these are shy frogs and much more difficult to keep than D.leucomelas that don't get stressed as easily. Every other loss I've had was for an obvious reason, such as one puncture injury and a couple of escapes--all my own fault.

The obvious follow up advice for any unexplained loss would be to preserve the dead frog in alcohol, or if you're close enough, present the freshly dead frog along with the freshest fecal samples to a herp veterinarian if you have one close by and can afford it. Not everyone has this option.

This is a mystery, for sure. I'm sorry I have no experience with anything but darts and some lizards and toads, so can't really answer your question about what to replace the leucs with in the same tank. You'd probably be wise to tear the whole thing down and start over with a sanitized tank if you're still in doubt about the cause of the leucs' demise.
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Patty
Pahsimeroi, Idaho

4 D. auratus blue
5 D. galactonotus pumpkin orange splash back
5 D. imitator
6 D. leucomelas
4 D. pumilio Bastimentos
4 D. fantasticus
4 P. terribilis
4 D. reticulatus
4 D. castaneoticus

Hi - thanks for your response, its greatly appreciated. I've had them for 2 months. There have been no harmful chemicals in the area and they were eating dusted fruitflies every day just fine. Humidity was good. The only deviation from the recommendations was the temperature sometimes reached about 82-85 degrees. My room gets quite hot (I live in an apt and cannot control the heat they send - I have both windows open AND a fan at the window, and its still hot in here when its 20 degrees F outside). Would that be enough to cause death?
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~ Vamppire
Queens, New York City

It might, if the temperature changes were sudden. 85 is a bit high for frogs or humans, for that matter, with 20 degree temps outdoors and an open window to try to modulate it. A ten gallon tank is more easily chilled (and heated) than something larger. Where is your tank in relation to the window? Maybe we're getting somewhere here.
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Patty
Pahsimeroi, Idaho

4 D. auratus blue
5 D. galactonotus pumpkin orange splash back
5 D. imitator
6 D. leucomelas
4 D. pumilio Bastimentos
4 D. fantasticus
4 P. terribilis
4 D. reticulatus
4 D. castaneoticus

Its on the other side of the room, off to the side. They actually weren't sudden changes, it was always between 80-85 during the day (when the light was on) and the nighttime temps in the room never dropped below 75 or so, usually around 78.
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~ Vamppire
Queens, New York City

nice looking tank.
do you have a temp gauge to put in the tank to see what the temps are. it looks moist enough because the plants look green. sometimes in tanks there gets a co2 buildup. but i don't think it looks like your tank would have that problem.
with the feeding how much did you give. did you see the frogs eat. should also look for a place that sells crickets since they tend to stay on the ground.
about the dusting,i read on another forum that a person had frogs die and it might of been that they were over dusting the food for the frogs.
sorry for you loss, like patty said it happens to all of us. it is a little painful seeing a 100.00 frog on your rug al shriveled up because it escaped some how.
walt

Hi there - yes, I have temp and humidity gauges. I would throw about 10-15 flies in there in front of him and i would watch him eat. He won't catch them all but he was eating. I was dusting them with the dust from blackjungle which is recommended for every feeding.
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~ Vamppire
Queens, New York City

Was this dust formulated for frogs and not reptiles? Some reptile dusts have the wrong ratio of calcium to phosphorus and too much vitamin A. However, I should think that either of these problems would have made your frogs appear sick sometime before they died. If you got your frogs from Black Jungle, I'm sure they wouldn't have recommended the wrong stuff.
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Patty
Pahsimeroi, Idaho

4 D. auratus blue
5 D. galactonotus pumpkin orange splash back
5 D. imitator
6 D. leucomelas
4 D. pumilio Bastimentos
4 D. fantasticus
4 P. terribilis
4 D. reticulatus
4 D. castaneoticus

It's "Dendrocare," made for dart frogs.

Thanks again everyone for trying to help figure it out.
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~ Vamppire
Queens, New York City

Are you dusting with supplements that contain high ammounts of vit-d. Darts are somewhat prone to vit-d poisoning through either dusting too much or somehow obtaining excess amounts of vit-d through their diet. Hope this helps Kollan

>>One of my two young frogs suddenly died a few weeks ago, and today, my little Brad just followed. No idea why. Was active and eating well up until this point. I posted just a few days ago that I heard his first chirp. Maybe he was trying to tell me he was ill, heh. I'm really crushed.
>>
>>I'm not going to repopulate the vivarium immediately, but I am wondering if anyone here has any suggestions of any other animals that would be suitable for a 10 gallon vivarium. Obviously, things are scaled to dart frog size. Are there any other small-enough frogs or other amphibians/reptiles that like 80ish humid environments?
>>
>>Link to pic of the viv:
>>img.photobucket.com/albums/v630/vamppire/Leucomelas Dart Frogs - Brad and Janet/Image25sm.jpg
>>
>>
>>Thanks
>>
>>-----
>>~ Vamppire
>>Queens, New York City
>>
>>

Vamppire said she/he(?) had been dusting with Dendrocare, which is ostensibly formulated specifically for Dendrobatids. This formula does have a higher level of D3 than some other amphibian formulas, a higher level of vitamin E, lower level of A, as well. The lower A levels are good, because A is not excreted, but stored in liver and fat cells and can become toxic. I have read some criticisms of Dendrocare (on frognet, I believe,) but can't remember what they were, exactly, or whether they were documented and valid or not. Can you remember where you got your information on the toxicity of the D vitamins? It seems we just do not have enough information on exact nutritional requirements yet, and it's hard to find specific information on Dendrobatids.

I just wish we could give more help solving this problem before vamppire goes on to trying something else.
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Patty
Pahsimeroi, Idaho

4 D. auratus blue
5 D. galactonotus pumpkin orange splash back
5 D. imitator
6 D. leucomelas
4 D. pumilio Bastimentos
4 D. fantasticus
4 P. terribilis
4 D. reticulatus
4 D. castaneoticus

Vitamin D as well E are both fat soluable and are stored in the same manner as vitamin A.
There is a good discussion on the effects of hypervitaminosis of D in the Nutrition chapter of Mader's book.
Many supplements these days now use betacarotene instead of Retinol (vitamin A) as many animals can convert betacarotene as needed into retinol.
Mixes that contain the fat soluable vitamins have a limited shelf life and should be replaced every six months as the various ingredients will catalyze the oxidation of the vitamins reducing their effectiveness.
And a point to remember, vitamin D and D2 are useless for herps as they cannot use them for calcium metabolism, it has to be D3. If the supplement does not specify D3 then it is probably using D or D2 as they are significantly less expensive to use in the formulation.

Ed

a gorgeous little tree frog that i have seen for sale at some shows is a -big eyed forest frog-. they are simple amazing in my opinion. a nice alternative to darts, i do not know how large they get though...

I am sorry to hear of your losses.

Herptile nutrition is largely extrapolated from our extensive knowledge of mammalian physology. I'd take any info on specific vitamin overdosages/underdosages with a grain of salt and generally go with what is working so far. (ie Black Jungle has a lot of success to back up what they supplement with)

As per what other species to house in the enclosure:
Above there was a valid point towards tearing the environment apart and starting from scratch to avoid passing on any pathogens. This is especially important if a necropsy isn't done and you plan on sticking with amphibians. It is still important, albeit to a lesser extent if you are moving to reptiles.
I'm a fan of necropsies and recommend getting one.
Other species that would do well in that size and type of enclosure would be reed frogs, smaller tree frogs, firebelly toads, smaller phelsuma species, many of the smaller salamanders (not ambystoma) house geckos, long-tailed glass lizards, many many skinks, green snakes, anoles and the like. Of course not all at once, and be carefull to not overpopulate.