Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Once again, this guy blows my socks off!! So what's it going to be next eh buddy?

'04 albino:

'04 male spider:

Sum of a beach, man! Nice little pair you've got there.

Congrats, buddy!
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www.cranwill.com

Nice looking albino!

I'm staying out of spiders..............30% of them have neurological brain damage (spinners). What worries me is that you can have a perfectly normal spider male produce spinner offspring. What also worries me is that they don't seem to develop it until in around 6 months of age. That's one mutation I won't have in my collection.

Corey

Might I ask if that (neurological brain damage) is a result of all the inbreeding? All the morphs are pretty, but eventually you do more damage than good IMHO. Don't get me wrong, I just think with some planning alot of this could be avoided and we could still come up with some beautiful snakes. To much inbreeding has caused problems in other animals as well. I own Manx cats. Because of the inbreeding it took to get them where they are, there is often a problem with the bowel system of some few of the kittens that causes their death before the age of about 4 months. I don't know how many of you are old enough to remember the trouble it caused with Doberman Pincers, but years ago they had a problem with swelling of the brain inside the cavity to the point where ther pain would make them unpredictable and dangereous. Just don't feel it's worth the wellfare of the breed to turn them into a money making machine. Thanks for letting me vent.

Quig

I would suspect that spider is right up there with pastel as one of the most outbred morphs available. Because of the dominant type inheritance most spider males are bred to many unrelated normal females and have been so for several generations. Like the kinking in caramels it looks like the spinning thing in spiders must come along with the mutant gene it's self and probably can't be outbred (although we should keep trying just in case a separate gene can be picked up to compensate).

The next question is if any ball python morphs have so much negative baggage that they shouldn't be bred. Do any of these problems affect their quality of life significantly? That's a hard one to answer but I would be tempted to say that if they eat and breed well it probably doesn't. With ball pythons being notorious for going off feed or not breeding for any little thing I would think that if a morph eats and breeds well it must be comfortable.

Last time (actually the first time) this came up the general consensus was that it wasn't very serious and they outgrow it quickly. Have you seen evidence to the contrary? Based on the antidotal information on how well they grow and breed I'm thinking/hoping it doesn't adversely effect their quality of life. It does seem to be intrinsic to the spider gene and sort of works in with the idea that they might be homozygous lethal (if one copy causes weird neurological symptoms perhaps two copies is incompatible with life).

However they are such a stunning morph that they are still tops of my list to add to my collection unless I hear more evidence that it's really a problem sufficient that they shouldn't be bred. Thanks for any more info though.

soon. How many breeders would admit to that? It would kill their sales. I'd like to hear from smaller collectors that have purchased one. But then if they were breeding, it would not be good for them to admit either. I hope they are a safe bet as I'm looking into getting one.
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Jay A. Martin

Jay, that was kind of my point. It just concerns me the damage it could do to the breed and to the breeders in the long run. If ya sell snakes that will die sooner than later you risk your reputation, right?

True. We'll see. Right now no one is admitting there is a problem. I hope not because that's huge investment of my funds.
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Jay A. Martin

Randy, thanks for the input. I'm not yet into the genetics of the breeds, as I only have one pair of normals, it's simply that reading these things worries me about the future of their breeding in general. Thanks again for the insight.

Quig

and I was about to offer to trade you even for one of your black stripes!

To each his own. LOL!

Mark
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www.ballpython.ca

Corey, what kind of data do you have to support that 30% neurological brain damage thing? That sounds pretty bad. I was thinking about springing for a spider this year too, but if their health problems are that severe maybe I ought to spend a bit more time studying the situation. How does this problem manifest itself? If I waited and bought a 6 month old spider could I consider that 'safe'? Have many died from this condition? Do any of the 'normal' offspring from a spider exihibit this problem? Even with the price drop recently, it still sounds like a lot of money for a defective animal. Does anyone else who owns one of these have anything to add either for or against?

Mark

>>Nice looking albino!
>>
>>I'm staying out of spiders..............30% of them have neurological brain damage (spinners). What worries me is that you can have a perfectly normal spider male produce spinner offspring. What also worries me is that they don't seem to develop it until in around 6 months of age. That's one mutation I won't have in my collection.
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>>Corey

I have never had any problems, although I only own one, he is a strong feeder, never refuses a meal. He doesn't mind being handled at all and all around is the best ball python I have owned. I have noticed that other peoples spider clutches usually seem to produce less than the predicted 50% spiders. That might suggest that normals have some developmental advantage following fetilization over the spiders. However, every spider I have ever seen has been extremely healthy, it definitely doesn't seem like 30% are "F" ed up. Just my opinion.

My male is the same, He eat's every time. I never seen him do that Star Gaze that some people say they do, but he did try to Bite me two times since I have him. I like that. I love Spiders

DragonDavy

You don't own a Spider! How are you basing your argument?

Give us some HARD FACTS to support your claim!!!

Brain Alston

Well...I have one spider and plan on getting more. Mine does NOT seem to have anything wrong with it. I think Kevin Mc, said somewhere the he doesn't see this as a problem since spider eat well, breed well, etc and that this is just a personality thing with the spiders. I agree with Kevin, If they were not a good morph to work with why would someone spend the time Kevin or anyone of the larger breeder have with the SPIDERS. I see not that much problem with them. I will be breeding the spiders in the years to come so I will know a little more on them at that time. Just my opinion on the spider deal. Thanks DAVID

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1.0 Pied(04)(RDR)
1.0 Albino(04)(RDR)
0.1 Spider(04)(RDR)
3.2 Pastels(03's)(04's)(ASF,Graziani,Bell lines)
0.1 Yellow belly(unproven)(04)
1.3 Yellow belly(unproven)(02,03,04's)
2.0 100% HET CLOWN(04's)(MHMR)
3.3 100% het albinos(03's)(high contrast bell line)
0.1 poss Het Albino(03's)
2.0 100% het pieds(03's)(Vin Russo,CRE)
0.2 100% het pieds(03's)(04's)(RDR,TWL)
1.2 Poss het pieds(03's)(PETE KAHL)
2.1 Poss het pieds(00's)(01's) hoping to get PIEDS this year(Vin Russo, Pete Kahl)
25 Normal adult females
60 04 females
15 normal mixed 03's
20 Assorted weird ball pythons 04's

Speaking from my own personal experience Spiders are one of the strongest projects in my collection. This is the first I've heard of any sort of problems associated with Spider genetics. That doesn't mean that there haven't been problems its just that I have never heard of any.

In June of 2003 I purchased a Spider from BHB Enterprises. In December of 2003 he bred several females. On April 13th 2004 my normal female #27 laid 9 good eggs from Spider breedings. On May 15th 2004 my normal female #17 laid 7 good eggs from Spider breedings. There were NO bad eggs in either clutch. On June 9th 2004 the first clutch hatched. There were 2.2 Spider and 2.3 normals all of which were perfect. On July 11th 2004 the second clutch hatched. There were 2.2 Spiders and 1.2 Normals all of which were perfect.

I kept the first 2.2 Spiders and 0.3 Normals and the second 0.2 Spiders and 0.2 Normals. I have had NO problems with any of them. The 2 males from the first clutch are breeding wonderfully and have shown NO signs of problems. Both Spider males that I sold are doing great! ALL of these Spiders and normal sibling females are all OVER 500 grams presently and over 6 months old.

I would like to see the breeding data from other Spider breeders as well and know if there have been any problems. I know that I am only working with a small number and I could be missing the bad luck.

As for now the only "Spinner" I know of is the BHB Spider x Pinstripe AKA Spinner!

Please everyone... post your experiences!
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Sean Bradley
Owner : EbN
www.ExoticsByNature.com
www.BallPythonMorphs.com
www.CornSnakeMorphs.com

This what I was thinking when the name spinner came up. I was thinking spinner ball but I think they were refering to the way some spiders spin like IBD. I have heard they act weird but have never seen it as far as I know.
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1.0 Pied(04)(RDR)
1.0 Albino(04)(RDR)
0.1 Spider(04)(RDR)
3.2 Pastels(03's)(04's)(ASF,Graziani,Bell lines)
0.1 Yellow belly(unproven)(04)
1.3 Yellow belly(unproven)(02,03,04's)
2.0 100% HET CLOWN(04's)(MHMR)
3.3 100% het albinos(03's)(high contrast bell line)
0.1 poss Het Albino(03's)
2.0 100% het pieds(03's)(Vin Russo,CRE)
0.2 100% het pieds(03's)(04's)(RDR,TWL)
1.2 Poss het pieds(03's)(PETE KAHL)
2.1 Poss het pieds(00's)(01's) hoping to get PIEDS this year(Vin Russo, Pete Kahl)
25 Normal adult females
60 04 females
15 normal mixed 03's
20 Assorted weird ball pythons 04's

No problems whatsoever.
Link

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www.NEWReptiles.com

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www.NEWReptiles.com

DragonDavy

Those are some damn nice snakes. COngratulations on such a sweet aquisition Jeff, and good work Mr. Mandic in consistently producing the most stunning of animals.
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www.strictlyballs.ca