Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Rob i just wanted to give you a very detailed description ofis cage to better help you undersatnd the problen......My room is in the basement as well as him. The basement with the room heater come to around 72-73. He is in a 55 gallon tank. The screen top is covered with a towel except for the area where there is a 10" heat lamp. The bottom i use is astroturf. Please dont critisize me on that. There is one hide box on the far left of the cage which is about 90. Then the whole cage is around 76 except the far right side where the heat lmap is which is around 80. So the lowest temp in the cage is 76 with the highest being 90. So im pretty sure all temps are good. The humidity is around 60 and never has a problem shedding. In the beginning of getting him i would give him frozen rat pups which he would eventually take withought wiggling or constricting. Then when i no longer could obtain frozen rats I gave him stunned small rats whiche he wuld constrict and eat. Eventually with medium rats he would even just try to constric withought biting the stunned rat. Now all of a sudden he is not eating stunned dead or frozen or even live. So what should i try next week? I would have no problem feeding him dedad prey if he'd take it because i want him to the point where he will just take it without me wiggling it or anything and just swallow without constricting....Thank you so much for all your help.
Jake

Someone gave you some excellent advice in a previous post...READ, READ and READ. When I was your age, I read Karl Kauffeld's "Snakes, The Keeper and the Kept" a thousand times over. I just about memorized that book from cover to cover. That and several other exceptional herp literary pieces helped me to develop my knowledge today (much moreso than any forum could provide). Although quite dated, it still has excellent advice; far better than half the garbage I read on the various forums (don't get me wrong, there are some incredibly talented people here but unless you know who they are, you can easily get confused). GET THE BOOK AND READ IT. GET AS MANY GOOD BOOKS AND READ THEM. IF YOU CAN'T AFFORD THEM, GO TO THE LIBRARY.

Now, you know my feelings of minors owning burms...they shouldn't and that means that you shouldn't. But, since the reality of the situation is that you do own a burm, I will try to help the snake out:

1) TANK: BAD, BAD and BAD. Seriously, a glass tanks is just about the most unacceptable option of caging for burms that you could use. My advice: either purchase or make an appropriate cage or find a new home for your burm. If you can't afford a new cage, you can't afford the burm. The snake deserves to be in a good environment. It's really that simple. The towel trick is okay but inhibits good air flow. Tanks, by their very nature allow too much heat to escape, offer poor ventilation, and are very difficult to secure properly. Vision cages, neodeshas, precision, habitat systems, crescent moon creations are all excellent choices at modest prices.

2) TEMPS: TOO COOL! If I was a burm stuck in the basement with your temps, I wouldn't eat either. You gave temps but where are you taking the readings? The ambient temps are far too cool. Those temps should range from 80 deg F on the COOL side to the mid to upper 80's on the warm side (this is ambient air; that is, the air that the snake breathes) while in addition to these ambient temps, you should have a basking area that reaches around 95 deg F.

3) HUMIDITY: I believe you mentioned 60% and that is fine

4) FEEDING: Based on the questions you ask, you are just not properly prepared for owning a burm. First, you never dangle food in front of a snake UNLESS YOU HAVE THE PROPER EQUIPMENT. This is basic "responsible big snake keeping 101". Buy some quality forceps or better, tongs from www.tongs.com and that will eliminate problems. All I do when feeding my burms is to thaw out a rat/rabbit, and, when the snake is in a resting/ambush position, I slowly twitch the dead prey in front of it (with the TONGS). That usually does the trick. Stubborn feeders sometimes need a slight nudge/tap on the nose to wake them up a bit. Try offering at night when the snake is most apt to be ready to hunt. ALSO, REALIZE THAT SOME BURMS GO OFF FEED THIS TIME OF YEAR; THAT'S OKAY. BUt I think your temps, set up have a lot to do with the snake not feeding.

Jake, asking questions is a good thing but the questions you are asking should have been resolved before you got the animal and many of those questions could be answered with you spending time researching (DON'T CUT CORNERS ON BUILDING YOUR KNOWLEDGE BASE). I personally would be very careful in accepting advice on the various forums because you can end up doing more harm than good (and in your case, with your very limited experience, you can be easily led astray). There are some excellent books out there.

If you want my best and most heart felt advice; find a new home for your burm, get a smaller species to work with and hone your skills with something you can handle (and something that can survive in the conditions you are providing); there are many wonderful colubrids to work with, smaller species of boas and pythons, etc. That would be a much smarter choice.

If you are going to be a future vet, you MUST LEARN TO DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH AND INVESTIGATIONS. Asking questions about every little detail will not help you develop GOOD INSTINCTS. Also, improve your communication skills. I know you are young but you are old enough to write grammatically correct and accurately spelled out sentences. Believe it or not, I actually take the time to proof my posts before I actually post them. Take pride in being a good writer! Please don't take this the wrong way because we are all happy that you are so interested in herpetology; but realize, you are very young and have a lot of maturing to do. That's just my .02.

>>Rob i just wanted to give you a very detailed description ofis cage to better help you undersatnd the problen......My room is in the basement as well as him. The basement with the room heater come to around 72-73. He is in a 55 gallon tank. The screen top is covered with a towel except for the area where there is a 10" heat lamp. The bottom i use is astroturf. Please dont critisize me on that. There is one hide box on the far left of the cage which is about 90. Then the whole cage is around 76 except the far right side where the heat lmap is which is around 80. So the lowest temp in the cage is 76 with the highest being 90. So im pretty sure all temps are good. The humidity is around 60 and never has a problem shedding. In the beginning of getting him i would give him frozen rat pups which he would eventually take withought wiggling or constricting. Then when i no longer could obtain frozen rats I gave him stunned small rats whiche he wuld constrict and eat. Eventually with medium rats he would even just try to constric withought biting the stunned rat. Now all of a sudden he is not eating stunned dead or frozen or even live. So what should i try next week? I would have no problem feeding him dedad prey if he'd take it because i want him to the point where he will just take it without me wiggling it or anything and just swallow without constricting....Thank you so much for all your help.
>>Jake
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

First of all Rob is spot on again in his advice.

The hardest thing to learn in life, is to ACCEPT you have made a bad decision!

Fundementally we all want to protect the hobby, thats why a lot of people seem really harsh when offering their opinions, its hard not to get upset when someone has an animal that is, how shall i say, not doing well. In my opinion, yes, minors should not be allowed such animals, although what annoys me is that you seemingly aquired the animal without any prior knowledge of care and husbandry, as that cannot be changed, you really have to get stuck in at the library!!(even if you do re-home the burm and go for something else!)

Building your own vivarium is the best option in my opinion, it allows you to optimise the space you have. Glass tanks are only useful for VERY temporary housing of any reptile and even then should be avoided. The other MAJOR disadvantage to aquariums is they offer no security on preventing escape!! NEVER underestimate the power or the cunningness of ANY snake to exploit any frailties in the enclosure.

Sounds to me that you need to sit down with whomever gives you money and budget a bigger, better tank with all the right equipment, it can take a while to get it exactly how you want everything, although it is well worth it!

If the allowed budget will not cover what is needed then you know your only option.

I dont think that anyone can disagree that we all go through the phase of wanting a giant snake/lizard at some point, you are not the only one, although as virtually everyone that goes through that phase very, very quickly realises that they do not have the space, time or money to care for them, look at any animal rescue centre or reptile classifieds, full of burms, retics, iguana`s and monitors. So you dont have to take it personally, there are people out there who have more money than you, more space and indeed the time but still are not prepared for just how big they get.

I really really hope this works out for you and you manage to get everything sorted out and enjoy having your snake, but please do the snake a favour and right these wrongs

Phil

OK Rob thanks a lot i knew it had to do with temps....but the weird thing is that he has always eaten with these kind of temps??? About the cage ...I am gettin a 8'x2' cge built by my dad in april and that is a vison cage with sliding front plexi doors ....I am also getting a controlled room heater in april where i can set the temps myself...I am going to try to get one of those now though...About the feeding you didn't answer one of my questions...

What steps do i take to getin him to just eat dead prey by dropping it in thwere and him swallowing it???

And one more thing...If he will not eat dead prey and iMUST feed him stunned then should i dangle it in front of him like you said or let it run around the cvage and let him get it on his own??

thanks for all your help,
Jake

Hey Jake, it looks like you are taking the constructive criticism a lot better. The snake may take without teasing and it may not. The best bet is to keep it warm and very dry so the scent is strong. If you get the proper tools you can use the teasing method. I tong feed a few snakes with a lot of success. However, you are going to need to develop some responsible feeding techniques for when this snake get too large to be feeding with 2ft tongs.

Rob did answer your question, Your temps are too low, the snake will not eat!!

You can put that rat in there on a bed of salad, with some caviar, it aint gonna touch it, period!

The snake know that it is too cold for it and therefore knows if it eats, it cannot digest the food properly, causing even more problems.

I do not understand why these methods used, I have NEVER, EVER, used anything other than defrosted rodents. If a snake doesn`t eat, its not a panic, its a challange, to find out what I am doing wrong, temps, humidity, lack of hides, food too cold/hot. I have never considered using live, stunned or fresh kill, there is no need.

Once you have your temperatures sorted out, you`ll find it`ll start eating again. As far as just dropping the food in and leaving the snake to eat from there, if its hungry, it`ll eat it, my burms never bother about whether the food is offered by tongs or left for them to find, the end result is the same, food gets eaten.

Lift your temps and get back on the right road

Phil

Thanks chameleon i undrstand what you mean but like i said hes eaten witht hese temops for 5 months i don't get why he all of a sudden stopped??? But i am getting the new heater soon and the ambient temps will be 80

Well, I did answer your question about how to present the dead prey (re-read the posts). The burm WILL FEED on f/t prey if you follow the steps recommended. That's good to hear that you are getting a proper cage; it will greatly increase your chances for success. And last, please, please, please, do not continue to mention stunned prey on this forum....you are reading these posts right? If you have to feed a live rat, then FEED A LIVE RAT THAT HASN'T BEEN UNMERCIFULLY CLOBBERED BY YOU!! If you continue to ask this question, I honestly will no longer answer your questions.

>>OK Rob thanks a lot i knew it had to do with temps....but the weird thing is that he has always eaten with these kind of temps??? About the cage ...I am gettin a 8'x2' cge built by my dad in april and that is a vison cage with sliding front plexi doors ....I am also getting a controlled room heater in april where i can set the temps myself...I am going to try to get one of those now though...About the feeding you didn't answer one of my questions...
>>
>>What steps do i take to getin him to just eat dead prey by dropping it in thwere and him swallowing it???
>>
>>And one more thing...If he will not eat dead prey and iMUST feed him stunned then should i dangle it in front of him like you said or let it run around the cvage and let him get it on his own??
>>
>>thanks for all your help,
>>Jake
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

np

>>np
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

I think he said,

Thanks Rob, sorry. I will not post about you know what. np
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0.2 chickens
0.2 dog mutts (half ownership, only mine when they misbehave)
0.1 Halflinger horse
0.0 Arizona Mountain Kingsnake (coming soon)
1.1 parents
Still searching for 1.0 WC human

I was totally lost on Jakes post as well. I figured out a few of the words but still could not make a sentance out of them. lol

.
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0.2 chickens
0.2 dog mutts (half ownership, only mine when they misbehave)
0.1 Halflinger horse
0.0 Arizona Mountain Kingsnake (coming soon)
1.1 parents
Still searching for 1.0 WC human

I put a rat in a jar until dead. If it is still warm, try feeding it. Else, put the dead rat in a baggie and put the baggie in a jar of hot water. Works for me.

Thanks but i ried feeding him a frozen large rat tonite and the rat got cold after 5 secopnds and he just won't take interest in any dead prey he is more interested in defending himself then eating. Next week when he eats i am going to give hi a stunned live rat and leave hjim a lone for a half hour and hope he'll eat it then if he eats it withought biting then ill try a frsh kille drat the week after:0

Rob has told you countless times that animal rights people read these forums for ammunition against us and our snakes. Even so, you still insist on telling them you are going to stun the prey. Seriously, go away! You're not trying to learn, you're a hard headed juvenille who needs a hard lesson in life. Go ahead and whine about you can say whatever you want and everyone is entitled to their opinion but...just because you have an opinion doesn't mean it's a good one. Hitler had an opinion! Quit making us look bad!
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DZ

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- George Orwell

How long does it take for the rat in the jar to become unconscious? Is there a lot of frantic movements/fighting?

The reason I ask is because carbon dioxide has some anesthetic properties (don't mistake this with analgesic qualities) and is a recognized method of humane euthanasia for smaller rodents; rats being about the largest of these. This however is done with a preloaded C02 chamber and the rats succumb rather quickly; after a few large breaths.

I know it's just a rat, but being humane about it's demise is only respectable. I can only picture two scenerio's here:
1)your jar is small enough that the collection of CO2 is quick and suffering is minimal. I'm uncertain if this is sufficient and is why I ask for your observations.
2)the rat does indeed panic and have time to suffer, in which I recommend prefilling your jar with CO2. Compressed carbon dioxide is cheap and easy to use.

I'm sure you read Rob's post above, and in a thread involving such an inexperienced enthusiast such advice as given in your post might not be used with positive results.

Thats a wonderful way to make the rat suffer and experience a slow death. It takes a while it to die that way. Instead, build a CO2 chamber and pump it full of co2. This method is more humane and takes seconds, not minutes.

>>I put a rat in a jar until dead. If it is still warm, try feeding it. Else, put the dead rat in a baggie and put the baggie in a jar of hot water. Works for me.

I was kinda getting to that but didn't want to assume since i've never actually put a rat in a jar before.