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I just got this guy in yesterday. He's quite a looker! I got him from ZPD (Zach Defran) out in California, luckily Minnesota is having record highs this week (50 degrees) and he arrived just fine. He's an '01 and about 56". A little bit on the musky side when handled, but pretty tame. I'll be handling him everyday to work on that. I plan on breeding him to my Eastern this spring.

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Matt from Minnesota
Cornsnake, Eastern Kingsnake, IL Bullsnake - all girls.
0.1 Crested Gecko

Is it just me, or is that not an eastern king?

Mike
Michael's Place

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Michael's Place has updated better caresheets
Helmz777@aol.com
www.freewebs.com/mikesnake

Why mess around? ... go ahead and say it....
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Matt from Minnesota
Cornsnake, Eastern Kingsnake, IL Bullsnake - all girls.
0.1 Crested Gecko

Matt,
I think there is nothing wrong with making some "man-made" Goini.
I am on the side that thinks Goini are a naturally occuring intergrades between Northern Florida Kings and Eastern Chain Kings. Some may call them Mutts or Muttley but they are great looking snakes IMHO.
John Lassiter

Just for the record Goini are not Floridana and Eastern King intergrades. They have been genetically proven to not have Floridana in them but only L.g.g. and L.g. Meansi or Apalachicola King or a Goini if you will. The research has been done its not simply a belief anymore.

Keith
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So,
Goini are L. g. getula X L. g. goini?
I don't get it.
Or maybe there are pure Goini and some with L g getula influence.
John Lassiter

What was once called Goini are actually intergrades between L.g. Meansi (Apalachicola Kingsnake) and the Eastern King. These would be the animals that are like this.

Dr. Bruce Means and Dr. Kenneth Krysko have done research on this with genetic testing etc... The paper is online somewhere. My point is that there is no Florida King in these animals.

Keith
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I was having a discussion about this on another forum. I'm aware of the study, but I have yet to see anywhere that says "meansi" has been accepted as a ssp. Do you have any info when it was accepted as a ssp?
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Ace

Accepted by who ? The scientific community ? The research is out there and the name is really what you choose to call it. Some think it should revert back to Goini others say Meansi. This is only a name what doesnt change is its validity as a sub thats been shown thru research and dna analysis. The name is really a moot point in this discussion.

Keith
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I guess it is NOT accepted yet, but i seen the snakewrangler episode where Krysco seems to think it will, time will tell?
Sooo what IS the correct name?,L.g.getula?(sure are a lot of blotchy iooking easterns around)

Well its either Lampropeltis getula goini or Lampropeltis getula meansi.

Keith
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How about a L.g.getula-L.g.florida (relict intergrade)i believe this is what most modern taxonomists think today at least until they change their mind.

I thought most Tax. thought it was a intergrade of 2 or more spieces that was isolated on a island formed during the ice ages. The isolation on the island causeing the change in apperance.
Later Jason

Dr.Means mentions that in the snakewranglers episode we will see if his findings are accepted. I'm starting to believe that the apalachicola is just another L.g.getula variety instead of an intergrade or even a seperate sub.

I have not seen the episode but I have read Krysko's paper a (couple years ago). Try looking at a map of the region with elevation included. Now add about 15 feet of water like in the ice ages, or between more likely. This would leave a island where the range of the goini is and one where the Florida king is (in the middle of the state along the ridge NW of the lake). One of these areas has a snake that people want to split into two more ssp. or at least did and the other you feel has one that doesn't deserive even the one it has. In California the same raise in water level doesn't leave nearly as much difference and I think most people wouldn't notice the difference if you put a map with the water 15 feet higher in front of them. But Florida you would think was the N pacific Isles. Check it out maybe you would have a different opinion. Or try some asprin it might just be a headache that you have.
Later Jason
Remeber SCIENCE doesn't have feelings!!!

here's one the easterns i bought from ya. Later MUCH Later

Which one is that? Male or female? That snake is looking nice how long is it??
This is the father of that one, My buddy has the 2 abberant sibs to that one and I am going to pair the parents again this season.
Later Jason

There's a lot of research out there that doesn't get accepted scientifically. Aside from that, if they do get scientifically accepted, I believe the name would be "meansi". Being "goini" was found to be an intergrade of Easterns and I BELIEVE, an undescribed or relic species/ssp of King and why they lost their ssp status (and where "meansi" would fit).
Until they're accepted by the herpetological powers that be, they would still be considered intergrades. (L.g.getula X relic or undescribed specie).
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Ace

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Eastern? Either my computers possessed and showing me Brooksi or you're hallucinating. Tom Stevens

Matt Don't do it. You have a swett looking female there. I will give you a male Eastern if you pay shipping... and send me some babies or meet me somewhere for herping and bring them. I am gonna try to meet up with Keith this spring man and I think you are in the same area right? Just dont join the dark side.LOL
Later Jason
Oh Boy here comes BlueRosy and Darth

Matt Don't do it. You have a swett looking female there. I will give you a male Eastern if you pay shipping... and send me some babies or meet me somewhere for herping and bring them. I am gonna try to meet up with Keith this spring man and I think you are in the same area right? Just dont join the dark side.LOL
Later Jason
Oh Boy here comes BlueRosy and Darth

Matt,
Not sure what tree Jason is barking up here. But I am sure you already know easternXfloridana naturally intergrade in the wild. Matter of fact most of the nice easterns ( at least what people here are calling easterns) you see on the forums are a result of that intergrade zone. If its a specific locality you want to keep pure (for whatever reason) then you would need to match up that eastern with the same locale. To do that you would first need locality data on your animal. However it is my opinion eastern kings don't read maps and don't stick to county lines as a few people here would have you believe.

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Rainer

I dont really have a problem with the Brooksi X Eastern intergrades that people make including you but dont make blanket statements like this...Matter of fact most of the nice easterns ( at least what people here are calling easterns) you see on the forums are a result of that intergrade zone.

There are range maps that are published in numerous books etc...a dnare accepted. Do you wish to publish your research and show where these are in error ? Some of the Easterns show influence from Floridana especially the ones from about Columbia Co. and over th othe Eastern Coast. They arent in a intergration zone though. Thats very misleading and generalistic info by you. As someone once said to me not too long ago...you are popular here and people take what you say as fact, and I would say the same to you.

Keith
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Keith
We both know why I made that statement and what my beleives are. We have been over this before and it should come as no surprise to you. In any case I don't see

Some of the Easterns show influence from Floridana especially the ones from about Columbia Co. and over th othe Eastern Coast

The intergrade zone is vast for easterns if you compare other places like california where the you have transitional life zones that make for much smaller intergrade zones than the east coast. You also have relict populations for the eastern crosses that extend further north and locales like Edisto.

Rainer

Relict crosses ? If you believe that Floridana or even Apalachicola Kings ever made it as far North as the Outer Banks or even Edisto Island Im shocked. Genetic testing in Outer Banks Kings show them genetically identical to mainland Eastern Kings in other words no Floridana influence or gentic material. Its simply isolation and inbreeding. Edisto looking animals are found further inland in SC as well. The S. GA animals I buy being influnced by Meansi and Floridana but further than that I believe it to be BS.

Keith
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Someone once told me that livestock bred back 5 or 6 times makes the DNA indistinguishable. Just because DNA results are conclusive does not eliminate the fact these animals where crossed at one time.

Thats interesting, I had never heard that but wish I could find out more about this.....I am gonna see what I can dig up after the weekend. Tom Stevens

Rainer you seem to be a realtively smart guy so tell me how OBK have Flordana influence. The key isnt that they dont have Floridana dna in them but that they are IDENTICAL genetically to the mainland normal non speckled Eastern Kings. I think someone once suggested that becasue they go thru ontogenetic change. Thats the only reason that it was believed as such not because they did a study or have fossil records but just becasue they have freakin speckles. Guess what I have Easterns from further north than that that have speckles. Not as much as the OBK's (not all OBK's are really speckled). Does this mean some of my NJ Easterns have Floridana in them ? Its dumb logic and Im not saying you are dumb but Speckled Kings and Black Kings and even MExican Black Kings go thru pattern change that doesnt mean they are relict populations of another sub species.

Keith
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Don't you think that genetic material can be carried across the land by "carriers" that intergrade then travel into pure populations? Those "pure" snakes with the influential genes then travel into another intergrade zone with another subspecies?
I think that is why common kingsnakes look very similar from coast to coast. Mexicana kingsnakes have the same similar look as well.
There are variations and anomalies in most clutch offspring. Maybe influential genes are the reason for this.
And I too heard that if you cross two like species in different subspecies such as Californiae to Brooksi, then breed the offspring back to, let's say the Brooksi after 9 generations DNA testing will not show any Californiae influence. But this would take at least 20 years or so to be accomplished by breeders in the hobby.
These snakes in the wild have had tens of thousand of years to do this without human intervention.
Just some food for thought and my honest opinion,
John Lassiter

Since even DNA seems arguable wouldn't a cool experiment to try go something like this... Start with 2 normal Eastern females. Use One Goini male and one Eastern male. Do some line breeding for a few generations and then check the DNA? Maybe the offspring from the crosses will still be very different as far as DNA and maybe it would be exactly as either the Goini or Eastern? This idea is in the simplest terms.....and is only a suggestion as to getting some insight to this highy debateable subject. I realize it would take a long time to draw a conclusion which would also be argueable since it would be results from just one control group but it still would be interesting to see. I honestly don't thinkn we'll ever get the answers we want, unless DNA testing becomes so commonplace that experiments similar to this are done on a very rountine basis. I don't even care all that much, however when an oddball snake pops up from 2 normal snakes it is going to get people thinking and wondering how and why it appeared, and that is part of what makes this hobby interesting. Tom Stevens

I sorta hate bringing up genetics in that I dont know much about it. One thing I do know is I think it was Chrish on here that seesm to know a few things about dna testing he stated that you cant ever get anything back to what it was once crossed. I believe obvioulsy an ancestral King had to mave about the country for them to getinto all the places they are. From the research papers I have read they came from the west. When you think of OBK's for example you would have to think of it in this scenario for them to have Floridana in them. Eastern Kings found themselves on the Outer Banks and then sometime after that some Florida Kings made their way North and bred with them then died back leaving these crosses on the Outer Banks of N Carolina. Seems a little unplausible doesnt it ? What seems more plausible is that Easterns found themselves on the Outer Banks and the populations were small and inm breeding was the norm and hidden traits or just evolution came to the front to adapt to island life. I think the latter makes more sense. Pardon my typo's Im in a hurry.

Keith
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"When you think of OBK's for example you would have to think of it in this scenario for them to have Floridana in them. Eastern Kings found themselves on the Outer Banks and then sometime after that some Florida Kings made their way North and bred with them then died back leaving these crosses on the Outer Banks of N Carolina. Seems a little unplausible doesnt it ?"

I don't think this is what he meant. I think he meant that, say, a florida crosses with an eastern and their babies move further north carrying both influences and those babies breed with others--others that carry those genes even further north. Somehow that does seem rational to me, especially when natural phenomena can influence migration (e.g., hurricanes). I remember (having grown up in FLA), discovering all sorts of animals blown around after a hurricane.

So you think Floridana genetics creeped all the way up to NC and even up NJ as some of my animals have attained speckles that are NK stock ??? If this is the case why dont more Georgia Easterns look more Floridana like ? I mean material can only go so far before its muted out. Once again OBK's were shown to be genetically identical to mainland Eastern Kings who dont have speckles or go thru ontogenetic change. The scenario I laid out is more likely IMHO.

Keith
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Hey Andy,
did you ever make it to the white plains expo? well it was my first and it wasn't that great... i'll be attending the next one cuz i need tons of pinkies. well i got to additions to my collection at the white plains expo did you get any thing?

"Blaze Phase" Goini

Red Hypo Brooksi

Pix of the champ: "Psycho" i love this snake. he's gotten alot better temperment wise.

Talk 2 ya L8r

~ZF

Hey Zenny,

I did, but my stay was brief, as I got knocked out by a wave of exhaustion from the flu. I only had time to pass through once, grab some crickets (but no mice, and dammit I NEED more mice!), and have my friend rush me out (she was a real trooper about the whole thing--only got grossed out by the bugs and spiders). I was eyeballing the albinos and axanthics, and will consider one when I go to the next one. Hopefully I won't be ill and we can meet up.

Andy

I agree and understand with both sides of the breeding ideas but am not set in stone either way. I'll explain a little bit about who I am when it comes to snake keeping:

Of my four snakes, I got my female Eastern from David Wheeler out of San Angelo (?), TX(which all of you have seen plenty if you know my screen name!) as a sophmore in high school 6 years ago. I have raised her since she was about 8 months old.

I've really liked the look of brooksi kings since I saw them on this and other forums. Honestly, I had never heard of them or seen them before I got back onto this forum a few months ago. How often do you see anything but Cali kings at the local shop? I would have purchased this new Brooksi with the intention of having him as a pet whether I breed or not.

Now onto the breeding of these two snakes. In the last year I've really gotten back into snakes, and am very excited to produce some babies this spring. I could not find an Eastern male that was within a foot of my female, as I wanted him to be at least close if not bigger than my female. I'm not even sure if it matters as long as all the breeding conditioning is met! If I had the choice, I'd rather go pure Eastern, although proving my female's locality is tough as I have not been able to find David Wheeler anywhere around the web. Personally, breeding locality animals together is great, but different "locale" E. Kings together is only going to improve their genetics.

Now, (finally) onto my situation with a Florida king and an Eastern breeding. FYI, I paid a lot of attention to the heated "discussion" that took place a couple months ago about this . I feel a small amount of hesitation because I understand that I will basically be producing mutts. However, very admirable mutts in my opinion, something a little different and very beautiful in my humble opinion. If I had a male Cali, or Mex. Black King for example, I'd never think about breeding him to my Eastern. Those would be mutts I'd be embarrassed to give away.

I'm not even interested in coming out even dollar-wise, but I don't think I'd have a problem finding people interested in the babies of these two. I know I'd keep a pair. Thanks for listening y'all!!

PS - Jason, - I'm interested in your offer and maybe we can work something out.
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Matt from Minnesota

Matt

I told you we could breed my male to your female ???? Your post makes it seem that we had never talked about that.

Keith
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Hey Matt
The offer stands. I was going to contact you via email but I don't have you in my address book. I actually ask Kieth if he had your addy a day or two before you posted this thread. Anyway I stand behind every sanke I sell 100% and the male in question is a little thin and not something I would sell before I fattened it up. If you want it for "free" up front, contact me and we can work out a deal.
I really don't care what people do with there own snakes as long as records are kept and they don't get into "pure" lines but that doesn't happen. The animals are sold off and people forget what they are and who they got them from and lines get muddy. Even local snakes have the chance of "mixed blood" but I just don't like to see it on purpose. That said I still like the looks of some of the hybrids out there but I don't like the implecations of what might happen to the blood lines out there.
Another point against hybrids is that the scientific community is less likely to come to the aid of the hobby in battles against the military like opperations of the "HUMANE SOCIETY" in there quest to outlaw reptile ownership. Every hybrid out there gives the scientific community one more reason to stay out of the fray. If we have a dedicated local breeding program of animals we could set up systems of tracking bloodlines but that takes more initative than I have. Sorry running off at the mouth off point a bit.
Later Jason

This time less chatter and more pic.
Email me at Snakesunlimited@sbcglobal.net This is a new address and I don't know who has it.
Later Jason

>>I just got this guy in yesterday. He's quite a looker! I got him from ZPD (Zach Defran) out in California, luckily Minnesota is having record highs this week (50 degrees) and he arrived just fine. He's an '01 and about 56". A little bit on the musky side when handled, but pretty tame. I'll be handling him everyday to work on that. I plan on breeding him to my Eastern this spring.
>>
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>>Matt from Minnesota
>>Cornsnake, Eastern Kingsnake, IL Bullsnake - all girls.
>>0.1 Crested Gecko
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I have been checking out the various comments on this thread and I have to admit I'm a little confused. To me there is no such thing as a man made intergrade. Intergradation is a phenomena that occurs where the range of two subspecies merge together. This is a natural occurence that concerns two very distinctive group of animals. Breeding a south Florida King with an Eastern King hardly falls into this catagory. I guess I support the right of people to do as they please when it comes to their snakes, but I have to ask the question, why would anyone want to do this? The end result is not the equal to the sum of the parts! Honestly I think both of Matts snakes are first rate specimens. I would hold out and find appropriate mates myself. If the intent is creating an artificial "goini" I would personally find that dispicable. For one thing I don't think floridana has anything to do with the blotched kings genetics and if someone was to unleash man made imitations on the snake buying public this would be just wrong.

Hi Phil, I understand your view on this but looking on the bright side I think us labeling these snakes as "man made" is a good thing. It gives the impression it is not a naturally occuring snake in the wild, and that is what we want...snakes to be represented honestly. Right or wrong many people think Goini are Eastern X Floridana intergades, just as many of us still use the term Brooksi, It is not exaclty correct but people know what we mean. If people refer to man made crosses as Goini, I am not OK with that but man made intergrade doesn't bother me much at all personally. Tom Stevens

Nothing wrong with breeding "muttley's". . . BUT!!! MAKE SURE that EVERYONE knows that's what they are. There are enough folks in this world misrepresenting animals. I see it in EVERY SINGLE reptile show I go to. There is ALWAYS at least a couple of "Rookies" out there that don't even know what they are selling! Example:
At the last show (in SC) there was a gentleman that was selling an adult appalachicola king and didn't even know that. He just called it a kingsnake from Florida and wasn't sure what it was when I asked him. He didn't even know the sex of the animal (said it was a female), until I told him!!! There was also a another gentleman at another table that labeled a large thin-banded Cal king as an Eastern!!! It happens all the time. . .

Here's a pic of one (a little female): Still trying to figure out if it has californae in it or not (It was labeled GOINI).

I say lets all stay educated and HONEST!!!

Zee

Wow - that's pretty incredible the things that go on. I can't imagine offering animals for sale without knowing everything possible about them. Right now Jason and I are working on getting me a male Eastern. That's what I'd rather do if I have the choice!
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Matt from Minnesota

I applaud your decision Matt. You have some fine king snakes. I think in the end you will be glad you held out.

You hit the nail on the head BlueKing. Rookies are the ones usually offering these snakes, often as something other than what they are. Thats what bothers me. I have seen it time and time again. I have much less of a problem with the popularity of all the color morphs. Its not my thing, but I can understand the attraction. Crossing different subspecies though creates chaos.

I agree that any snake offered to the public should be correctly labeled as to what it is Tom. Don't get me wrong, I'm all down with people having the right to keep and breed what they want. I am concerned on the number of unnatural crosses that are being released on the snake buying public. When I used to man our herp society booth at the local reptile show there was hardly a month that would go by when someone didn't bring me a king snake to look at and tell them what it was. Unfortunately, most of these "bargain" snakes were the result of some bush league basement breeder that was not willing to invest in quality pairs of breeding stock and was more interested in chasing a dime. I have seen more dung colored kings of unknown origin than I ever care to look at. Of course these unscrupulous venders would descibe their mongrels as the closest looking subspecies they could think vaguely would work into the description. Whats worse is the buyers were usually kids that were on a limited budget and were aspiring to put together their first snake breeding project. How do you think I felt when these kids came to me asking what it was they had so they could save their hard earned cash to buy a mate next month?

I understand your distress and the examples you just made also burn me up too. It is very easy for me to say proper representation and responsibility are the keys to keeping things straight as can be in the hobby. This Goini/Meansi subject is one of the most difficult to explain since I can't think of many people who agree on what this snake exactly is and how that can be proven? I just thought guys like yourself would some what appreciate the "man made" monicker in the titles of these crosses that some of us guys like, and I am guilty of saying mand made Goini myself....and if it makes you feel any better I will make an effort to stick too man made cross instead of Goini. I just think people should understand that the points you mentioned...especially concerning kids wanting to get involved in the hobby are taken VERY seriously by some of us breeders who do like hybrids and crosses. We are not OK with misrepresentation. We want people to get what they pay for[of course I can not speak for everyone....just have some friends in mind who would back me on this]. I think that this subject is totally worth our time to bring up all points and opinions. I also think people need to be bold at the proper time and place. For example if someone asks you to identify a snake and tells you they just bought it from someone who claimed its something entirely different, THAT is the time to strike. The person who sold that snake should be questioned and even harrassed if they're proven to be dishonest. On other forums there's talk of a sort of self police-ing among serious herpers. Especially concerning some other issues in our hobby and I am hoping that it does indeed shake up this hobby for the better. There's much room for improvement. Not to be a downer....but things like Hypo-Erythristic Hondurans being called Anerys, Goini possibly becoming Meansi and the very popular Floridana vs Brooksi debate it is obvious that things could be solved with more participation and APPRECIATION for the people who do solidify the facts that for some reason most of us ignore due to being in the habit of looking at things as they once were....even though it is a FACT that these things are now different. My bet says if Meansi is forced down our throats, most will still call them Goini just like this whole Floridana Brooksi thing. I am not saying I like that....but I would guess you would agree? There are some words in the hobby that are short and simple but can be twisted like a freakin pretzel. Some examples are Line, Strain, Cross, Hybrid and Intergrade and especially pure and purist. I take your comments very seriously and want to be a good guy Phil. I am sure others do too. If you ask me what its going to take to get everyone on the same page I just dont know? It's funny how this Pantherophis change was accepted readily yet other things I have spoke of are ignored? I guess we'll all just have to keep working this out. Sorry to be long winded, just hoping some of the people who read these posts will see that even some of us on opposite ends of things do want the same thing when looking to the future, and that is to keep things honest. Take it easy Tom Stevens

You bring up an excellent point Tom. There are those out there that do dabble with hybrids and other crosses that accurately label their offerings for what they are. Though it is not my cup of tea so to speak, I have no problem with the folks that do this and count some of these people as my friends. Its the shady characters out there that get me going. I might take some heat for this, but I have less of a problem with out and out hybrids (such as rat snake x king) than I do with someone breeding a gray rat to a yellow to "create" a gulf hammock. Its snakes like those that can spawn much confusion where as a cross of different genera is usually fairly obvious. I agree the "goini" situation is problematic. It is my understanding that the original description was based upon specimens that were blotched and clearly had genetic influence with the surrounding getula. I have always had a difficult time accepting floridana influence being in the mix when it came to the Apalachicola lowland varients. To me, the floridana influence theory was one of convenience and no more than an attempt to explain why these snakes looked so different. Personally I find the theory of these snakes being the remnants of an insular population of getula that have been repatriated with the mainland much more likely. It makes for good conversation and regardless of what they are there is one thing we can all agree on (hopefully!). Those kings snakes from the Apalachicola lowlands represent a very unique and distinctive locality. I think that these snakes should be cherished by hobbyist and preserved in their original genetic form. Since this varient only occurs in a rather small area and is linked to this locality I believe it would be a misnomer to describe anything other than snakes from this genetic line as goini. I guess what I am trying to say is goini represents a locality. Any artificial crosses that produce snakes that may mimic these snakes could be fairly represented by saying such and cross, but I think the labels that are usually reserved to describe goini such as Apalachicola kings, blotched kings etc.. should only be used when describing snakes that originate from that locale.

"I would hold out and find appropriate mates myself. If the intent is creating an artificial "goini" I would personally find that dispicable. "

I know this has been discussed ad infinitum, but the rationale that hand-picking mates that are deemed "appropriate" seems a bit biased in the same way that producing any snake is. However, I do think that misrepresenting animals is an unnecessary evil.

I do have a question with all these crosses: When you breed an eastern to a florida or a florida to a california, do you have to "trick" the snakes into breeding in the way I believe jungles are produced? Or do they go about their business as if the mate was of the same subspecies?

fliptop

Fliptop, I don't have to coax my neighbors dog into humping my leg. What does this prove?

You are right on the bias issue. I happen to be one of those guys that cherish wild populations of snakes unabashedly. I see nothing wrong with that.

Phil

Fliptop, I don't have to coax my neighbors dog into humping my leg. What does this prove?

It proves you have a good relationship with your neighbor's dog? What I was curious about--and still am for that matter--was what sort of distinctions the snakes themselves make when breeding--whether they have a natural response to other ssp or treat them as if they were an entirely diff species (as with a king x corn). Apparently it happens with deserts and speckleds, but would it happen with cals and flas? I thought this was a fair question, but apparently not.

You are right on the bias issue. I happen to be one of those guys that cherish wild populations of snakes unabashedly. I see nothing wrong with that.

Your tone seems to suggest I or others have a problem with that. I don't.

Fliptop, sorry about that. I guess my sense of humor didn't translate very well with the neighbors dog analogy. Anyhow, I can't speak from experience but my guess is the same chemical cues and behavioral responses would be present for all members of the getula complex.

An intergrade is just that, naturally occuring offspring that is produced by two ssp where their ranges overlap.

Any time a person takes 2 distinct ssp and breeds them, you get a hybrid IMHO.

For instance, the eastern milks and red milks here in KY have overlapping ranges and in those areas you can find eastern milks, red milks and intergrades of the two. If I catch 2 intergrades that are very nice specimens, and breed them, I can call the offspring locale "intergrades". Not man-made or whatever. If I take a nice eastern and a nice red milk from the same locale and breed them, sure Im going to get an "intergrade" of sorts, but it wouldnt be a true intergrade as it did not happen out in the wild! If I were selling these snakes, I would label them as "hybrids", as I caused these snakes to breed and produce offspring.

Now if you go out in the part of FL where the getula and the floridana ranges overlap, and can acquire a pair of nice intergrades, then selling the offspring as intergrades would be legit.

But selectively picking a nice getula and a nice floridana and breeding them is hybridization.

This is my opinion on the matter, and not meant to offend anyone. Just a little healthy conversation.
Brian Baker

Here is a naturally occuring red X eastern milk intergrade from here in KY.

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RATS
1.0 Corn snake "Warpath" (KY locale)
1.0 Black rat snake "Havok" (KY locale)
1.1 Black rat snakes "Reaper and Mystique" (MO locale)
1.0 Albino Black rat snake "Malakai" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Everglades rat snake "Deadpool" (Dwight Good stock)
0.1 Greenish rat snake "Rogue" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Yellow rat snake "Wolverine" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Grey rat snake "Punisher" (White oak phase)(Dwight Good stock)

MILKS
0.0.1 Eastern Milk snake "Cable" (KY locale)
0.0.1 Eastern/Red milk intergrade "Omega Red" (KY locale)
Good luck and Happy Herping
Brian

Hotshot,
It seems you and a few others on here have reinvented the english language. If you don't know what a hybrid is then look it up in the dictionary. Then come back and share your opinion.

Also with all these opinions on here about natural intergrades and man made intergrades you think those with such strong opinions one would at least know WHAT a hybrid is before commenting.

Somehow Hotshots message seemed to have went right past you despite his efforts to explain his reasoning. I don't think anyone here is saying that two getula placed together will produce a hybrid from that union. I think I understood his rationale of placing two subspecies together from a non-contiguous population as being a technical hybrid. In other words not a hybrid in the traditional genetic sense rather a creation of something other than a natural intergrade. In the hobby the term hybrid has taken on other uses than the production of offspring from two separate specific entities. This is understood by most of as a technical hybrid by those of us that put emphasis on genetic purity. In the academic sense you are correct, but in hobbyist terms this is standard usage to describe a mongrel.

I was looking for the post from a while back that someone broke down the proper terms (I think it was ChrisH or somebody?) but I could not find it. It broke down the different terms we should use as not confuse crosses in this hobby.

Its kinda like calling a Ghost morph a ghost when in fact its just a hypo and not a hypo X axanthic. Its slinging around the terms loosly that get us into trouble because others will follow.

The terms are used in the hobby incorrectly. There is a definition of both terms that I still get confused myself sometimes but that doesn't change that when used incorectly it causes problems. I like to read Terry's post because with his background in writing he does a terrific job of getting his point accross. For others like myself it is not that easy. Sometimes it comes out clear and sometimes we confuse the issues, ourselves, and those that read our post and assume that we know what we are talking about... In this sense it is imperative to use proper terms because all that is said is what is written by us. We can't relay more than what we write in this forum. I have my girlfriend proof read what I write sometimes just to make sure it makes sense. I don't have Terry's way with the written word. Their are others on here ofcourse but Terry sticks out in my mind because in the time I have been reading this forum he has written some of the best post. Nuff kissing a@#
Words are meant to relay a exact thought. Some of us just don't have exact thoughts.LOL
Later Jason

The rules are in accordance to those set out regarding binomial nomenclature. I could make a long post and break that down for anyone thats interested. Basically color morphs do not enter into the equation when discussing systematics. The point that was being made was that although a Cal King x Eastern does not constitute an actual hybrid it is a cross that would not occur in nature. Thus an unnaturally occuring snake. Not what I would call an intergrade but rather a man made abomination.

Point taken. I understood it differently when described in water snakes in regards to something else but actually applying it here just confused me. Please write it down for me if I am wrong but... Crosses below Getula such as Lgg.xLgc. as you stated are technically intergrades and Lgg.x a mexican milk L triangulum annulata lets say would be a hybrid??? Or do we have to leave Lampropeltis to get a technical hybrid?
Thanks Jason

Jason, the whole thing can be confusing for sure but once its laid out its fairly simple. I will see if I can find time to make a post tomorrow explaining the rules of systematics. If so I'll post at the top of the page since this thread is getting buried fast. - Phil

It seems you and a few others on here have reinvented the english language. If you don't know what a hybrid is then look it up in the dictionary. Then come back and share your opinion.

Bluerosy
Well I took your advice and this is what I found, straight from websters I mind you:

IMHO taking ANY snake and breeding it with something other than what it is, and you get a hybrid!!!!

Also with all these opinions on here about natural intergrades and man made intergrades you think those with such strong opinions one would at least know WHAT a hybrid is before commenting.

So enlighten me then on what you perceive to be a hybrid!!! After all you know what your talking about and I obviously do not.
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RATS
1.0 Corn snake "Warpath" (KY locale)
1.0 Black rat snake "Havok" (KY locale)
1.1 Black rat snakes "Reaper and Mystique" (MO locale)
1.0 Albino Black rat snake "Malakai" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Everglades rat snake "Deadpool" (Dwight Good stock)
0.1 Greenish rat snake "Rogue" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Yellow rat snake "Wolverine" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Grey rat snake "Punisher" (White oak phase)(Dwight Good stock)

MILKS
0.0.1 Eastern Milk snake "Cable" (KY locale)
0.0.1 Eastern/Red milk intergrade "Omega Red" (KY locale)
Good luck and Happy Herping
Brian

Great post Hotshot,You did your homework well.I agree with your answer 100%.

These words, hybrid and intergrade, are terms that have a specific meaning in the field of evolutionary biology. However, outside the field, they are often used more broadly, and in fact, synonymously.

In biological terms, a hybrid is a natural cross between two different species. An intergrade is a naturally occurring cross between two different subspecies or races.

Now, once you take these snakes out of the wild and put them in plastic boxes, the terms lose their meaning as they aren't "naturally occurring" crosses. So it really doesn't matter.

This kind of non-scientific expansion of terminology is common in the herp trade (for example, my snakes are currently brumating for the simple reason that snakes do not hibernate). This sort of (mis)use of scientific terminology is common in "lay" science.

The fact is, as long as we know what we are talking about, who cares if you call it a hybrid or an intergrade. It technically isn't either since it happened in a Rubbermaid container.

This sort of "expansion" of the meaning of a term does no harm. The only harm is done when someone tries to impose on meaning of the word on the other group.

For example, when someone criticizes the Theory of Evolution because "it's only a theory", they are simply demonstrating their ignorance about the two uses of the word theory. The reason....the word theory has a very different meaning in science than it does to the non-scientist. The Theory of Evolution is only a theory in the same way that the Theory of Gravity is, yet I'm not worried about floating out of bed tonight!

There is no problem with there being two (or more) implications about the meaning of a word (hybrid, intergrade, hibernate, theory, etc.) as long as you understand what it does and doesn't imply in that context and don't try to extrapolate one meaning into the other context.
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Chris Harrison

Kinda of atleast you just said it way better!!! You should copy this to the top of the forum so people find it. It is kinda buried right now and it is right on point and should be read.
Thanks Jason

"In biological terms, a hybrid is a natural cross between two different species. An intergrade is a naturally occurring cross between two different subspecies or races."

I agree with your definition of intergrade. That was the point I was trying to get across. I have never heard the term hybrid as applied only to wild populations. I'm curious, if your definition of hybrid is only applicable in that context, how would you describe the offspring of two separate species that were bred in captivity?

I'm curious, if your definition of hybrid is only applicable in that context, how would you describe the offspring of two separate species that were bred in captivity?

This is the problem we face. There is no defined set of terms for discussing these things in the captive herp industry. I wonder if the AZA or some other group has standards?
Of course, as soon as you propose some, everyone will jump in and disagree .

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Chris Harrison

Good point Chris. Getting consensus can be difficult. I have a friend that works in the herp area of an AZA accredited zoo that I will be talking to later today. I'll see what he knows about any standards that they use. - Phil

Killer milk Brian. What county?
Phil

Thanks Phil,
Northern Meade county, and Ill be on the look out for a red milk from there this spring.
Brian
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RATS
1.0 Corn snake "Warpath" (KY locale)
1.0 Black rat snake "Havok" (KY locale)
1.1 Black rat snakes "Reaper and Mystique" (MO locale)
1.0 Albino Black rat snake "Malakai" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Everglades rat snake "Deadpool" (Dwight Good stock)
0.1 Greenish rat snake "Rogue" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Yellow rat snake "Wolverine" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Grey rat snake "Punisher" (White oak phase)(Dwight Good stock)

MILKS
0.0.1 Eastern Milk snake "Cable" (KY locale)
0.0.1 Eastern/Red milk intergrade "Omega Red" (KY locale)
Good luck and Happy Herping
Brian

Nice find Brian. You just might find a rattlesnake there also.