Reptile & Amphibian Forums

vs L. pulcher

Greetings all,
I missed out on the arguments/justifications for the identifications of the Lystrophis in the American pet trade, and now hognose.com seems to have disappeared. Can anyone enlighten me on these identifications? Thanx/Dick

Dick, as I understand, there was some contention in the trade in regard to juveniles being sold as L.semicinctus vice L.pulchra. Apparently, both are quite attractive as hatchlings, but pulchra darken considerably with age (similar to the Bismarck Ringed Python). On the other hand, semicinctus apparently maintain near juvenile coloration. As I understand, some people were quite unhappy with their brilliant juveniles turning into drab adults. I can't remember the semicinctus/mattagrossensis debate.
From a historical perspective, I believe that the reason tricolor hogs became "instantly" popular in the American trade was due to one book that included a picture that was labeled L.semicinctus (Mehrtens??). There are some pretty cool Lystrophis that haven't entered the American trade (but they aren't tricolors).
Shane

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Yes, there would appear to be either 5 or 6 species of Lystrophis now (depending on the describing authority), at least 1 or two being genetic spin offs from better known species.
Of the non-tricolored species, I find only dorbignyi attractive. L. histricus and L. nattereri seem to look in color-pattern like a bland Pima shovel-nose.
It is the species controversy over the 3 tricolored forms--mattagrossensis, pulcher, and semicinctus, that interests me most. There is so little info regarding the species descriptions of these that I find most of the comments made to be inconclusive. I find that the statements that I've heard, to the effect that "most tricolors now in the American pet trade are pulcher or mattagrossensis rather than semicinctus" are questionable. Unfortunately, most of the comments that were readily available have become unavailable with the seeming demise of another website. Cheers/Dick

I hope you can debunk the tricolor mystery. The good news is that you can contact Dennis Desmond in regard to whatever was available on hognose.com. By the way, I've always liked Phyllorhynchus Good luck with your new project, and be sure to mention that in the real world, platyrhinos very rarely consume rodents (there is a popular myth on this forum that suggests otherwise). Shane

I must be getting old or wise (probably neither, apparently I can no longer quickly distinguish between the common names that end in "nose." Shane

regarding platirhinos and diet with a great deal of interest.
IMO, there are times when a "researcher" or "expert" can be too literal. Insistence on scientific data that may never be forthcoming may do little to save a snake suffering from renal or other problems due to an unsatisfactory diet. There is little question that platirhinos and simus both eat cicadas, locusts, and an occasional nestling bird or rodent. They are inveterate scavengers as well, so I won't argue the ingestion of the Tamias.
But, as for the statement that a diet primarily of rodents does these snakes no harm--well then it is I who must ingest the proverbial grain of salt and insist on the state motto of Missouri--show me.
Can a hog-noses diet be skewed. Sure. Does it harm the snake? Who knows for certain? But did they evolve to eat mice just to make keeping them easier for a hobbyist? Absolutely not! And I have seen the lives of far too many platirhinos and simus being fed a diet of rodents end far too abruptly under very questionable circumstances to have the survival of 1, 10, or 100, being so fed sway my thoughts. Cheers/Dick

You said it,Dick. In my observations in the field, easterns are tremendous scavengers, mostly eating leopard frogs, green tree frogs, and gulf coast toads here in Texas. I wouldn't put it past them to ingest the variety of small snakes that are part of the road kills. Checkered garters, ribbons, and Texas brown snakes in particular. I personally believe that they evolved to specifically eat anurans, toads being the bulk of the diet. That is what my observations have shown me in the wild. I would have to say that only time will tell in captive populations. Well said, again.
Todd Hughes
p.s. my eastern will only eat the three species of anurans previously mentioned and my study area is Refugio and Goliad counties along Texas highway 183 in south central Texas. It is a large but localized population.

Hi Todd--thanx for your note.
I don't know whether it's possible to do so, but you might want to delete that reference to your study area.
I have watched hobbyist-breeder's here in FL try to acclimate one platirhinos after another to a rodent diet. It has seldom worked. Dozens have died compared to the 2 or 3 that have lived. Those fed anurans (specifically Bufo quercicus and metamorph Bufo terrestris, Eleutherodactylys planirostris, & Hyla cinerea) have survived and seemed to thrive. Attempting to justify a rodent diet for these (and other snakes with enlarged adrenals) is nothing new. I've watched it go on for over a half century.
Good luck with your field studies. Cheers/Dick

Hi Dick,
snip "I have watched hobbyist-breeder's here in FL try to acclimate one platirhinos after another to a rodent diet. It has seldom worked. Dozens have died compared to the 2 or 3 that have lived. Those fed anurans (specifically Bufo quercicus and metamorph Bufo terrestris, Eleutherodactylys planirostris, & Hyla cinerea) have survived and seemed to thrive. Attempting to justify a rodent diet for these (and other snakes with enlarged adrenals) is nothing new. I've watched it go on for over a half century."

Do you think that this mortality rate is due to the rodent diet or due to husbandry practices (such as force feeding stressed snakes, parasite loads) or a mixture of the above? When changing difficult species from one diet to another (while I have not worked with E hognose I have worked with other "difficult" species such as E. coral snakes and king cobras), I have noticed that attempting to switch the snake before it has become throughly acclimated to captivity usually results in the death of the snake.

I have a hard time believing that the metabolic processes of a Eastern hognose are that different than that of a Western Hognose when it comes to metabolically dealing with prey items.

Ed

Hi Ed--is it spring up there yet? Forsythia blooming? Ambystoma in the puddles?
As you well know, there are many things about hog-nose husbandry that remain speculative. But in the cases I'm remembering (and there have been bunches, including a few of my own over the last 50 years, I don't think force feeding, etc. entered into it at all.
I think that the problems have come from the prey choices.

But I wonder about naive snakes anyway. I have seen a few platirhinos hatchlings that seemed to be doing very well on pinkies from day one--rather from meal one--keel over when given a toad later in life. It is as if the adrenal glands did not develop apace because the snakes hadn't started out with metamorphs that lack most toxins, and then worked their way slowly upwards with the adrenal secretions becoming more sophisticated with every toad eaten.

I don't pretend to have many of the answers, but I _think_ I have a few---probably just not ones about platirhinos.
Cheers/Dick

Hi Dick,
Despite a warm spell (it was 50 F) today the ground is still frozen and and most shaded pools still have at least an inch of ice on them.
The forsythia is still dorment (the snow drops haven't bloomed yet) and the ambystoma are still hidden, the peepers and the wood frogs are silent.

With respect to the snakes naive to a toad diet dieing later in life when fed fed toads, it is possible that the snake had less of a tolerance for the venoms. It is possible that the snakes need to develop a tolerance as they grow. As the size of the adrenals are genetically hard wired I would suspect that this is not the issue with the deaths.

The problem I run into with the whole rodent diet=bad issue is that I have heard this about not only multiple species but multiple genera. Over the years I have been told that king cobras switched to rodent only diets will die, the same for coral snakes, kraits, garter snakes, N. Brown Snakes and water snakes (Nerodia). Yet over and over again, I have seen that as long as the animal is well established and feeding the transition is very easy (and if not well established it almost always results in death). If you take it a step further, with respect to the oft stated unnatural diet issue, the majority of herps in captivity today are fed unnatural diets. None of the native rodent feeders were ever fed on the common house mouse prior to the colonization of the new world as it is not native to this part of the world. That is an old world prey animal. The same can be said for most if not all of the commecially available invertebrates used as feeders (even the lowly "Canadian" earthworm which is a European importation).

Ed

So why did those King Cobras cough up hairballs (or were you joking?) The difference in comparing native and non-native rodents is far from comparing nutrient composition between rodents and amphibians.
http://plaza.ufl.edu/mscha/page1.pdf
It would be interesting to see a real long term study on this issue. It wouldn't be difficult to design such an experiment, but it would take TIME. I'll guess that five years would provide good insight, but this is emotional herpetoculture, and a lot of snakes would need to be sacrificed at a given point. I'd like to try it sometime.... I'm sure there are some people who are in a good position to start such an experiment, but I imagine they care too much about the froggies and the hoggies (who cares about the rodents).
At this point, the biggest problem I see with keeping platyrhinos, is that the keepers (for one reason or another) aren't able to provide them with anuran prey items. They are no more difficult to maintain than a cornsnake, but they just don't seem to be fond of rodents. I wonder why?? Shane

In checking with the ssp and some other people, this is typically only seen in very old kings (and I think ours is now close to 27) and he began doing this in his early 20s....

Actually there is a huge difference between cultured rodents and native rodent species. The article you cite is referring to domestic rodents. For example voles are 64% protien and 16% fat (on a kcal basis) which looks to compare very favorably with the 70% protien of frogs in the study you cited.
Jumping mice as another example are about 63% protien and 18% fat...

In a seperate reference, Southern toads weigh in at 61% protien and 14 fat while the white footed mouse comes in with 59.9% protien and 19.9% fat. (For the references see Nutrient Composition of Whole Vertebrate Prey (Excluding Fish) Fed in Zoos (NAG publications).

Ed

I guess I didn't point out my position on this issue very well:
HAIR, HAIR, HAIR. That should sum it up.
You provided the perfect "it very well could be a problem" in regard to the King Cobra. Common sense tells me that O.hannah shouldn't be coughing up hairballs at any point in life. Likewise, a trusted friend of mine also believes that H.platyrhinos shouldn't have an intestine that is lined with rodent hair.
On the other hand, some people on this forum perpetuate the myth that there is absolutely no problem.
I think the debate alone provides solid evidence that there is in fact a problem in regard to platyrhinos on a rodent diet. It is especially annoying to see people disregard evolution to make herpetoculture a more convenient affair; I don't group you into that category.
Shane
P.S. In regard to the Coralsnake, I'll assume that the size of the snake dictated a diet of pinkie (=hairless) rodents.

Hi Shane,
The king didn't cough up fur balls when he was younger the the two younger snakes we have do not cough them up (or even the feathers as the one is on chicks now). In many animals including people, digestive anomolies occur the older they get, for example lactose intolerance becomes more prevelent with old age in some groups. Other issues such as increased constipation risk (think metamucil commercials) in people. Similar issues occur with herps, I have seen very old Heloderma (30 plus years) become constipated on hairless rodents and have to be fed a diet of eggs blended with vitamin supplements. People need to remember that with many species, true geriatric animals are few and far between and most are not in situations where the issues of health are being recorded in a long term storage format (Zoos do this, for example we have over 100 years of necropsy records).

Now onto the hair issue, I would find this a more compelling argument if snakes that are adapted to feeding on rodents did not become constipated or obstructed with hair boluses. This is recorded in the literature surrounding reptile medicine and is not that infrequent an issue.

The coral snake actually was big enough to take small fuzzies so he did get fur in the diet.

Some thoughts,

Ed

Good points, but there's still a problem. At best, the problem is simply a lack of evidence from either side of this debate. At worst, it could be a real problem.
For what its worth, my friend (who has a master's degree in biology) did perform necropsies on a number of captive platyrhinos that died prematurely (rodent diet). I'm pretty sure he told me that in every case, the animals had a good deal of hair lining the intestine. It wasn't constipation. Most were captive hatched animals that were switched to rodents as soon as possible. They did reach maturity, but as I recall many died within the five year mark. His opinion is that hair is the problem, and I agree with his logic.
The problem is that his info is purely anecdotal, as is any info that says there isn't a problem.
The one thing I can vouch for, is that I've never had a problem feeding platyrhinos toads and frogs (their primary prey). They certainly eat rodents in the wild, though not with any frequency. So the problem, with current information, is that feeding an exclusive diet of rodents will cause no harm. That claim is based on flagrant ignorance, especially when compounded with "there's no need to feed them anurans." There is no reliable evidence that an exclusive diet of rodents causes no harm, yet there is a vast amount of knowledge in regard to their natural diet.
Just some thoughts. Glad to see you posting.
Shane

snip " For what its worth, my friend (who has a master's degree in biology) did perform necropsies on a number of captive platyrhinos that died prematurely (rodent diet). I'm pretty sure he told me that in every case, the animals had a good deal of hair lining the intestine. It wasn't constipation. Most were captive hatched animals that were switched to rodents as soon as possible. They did reach maturity, but as I recall many died within the five year mark. His opinion is that hair is the problem, and I agree with his logic."

Okay the the hogs retained the hair, but was this due to the diet, obesity (which readily affects gut motility) or another pathological condition that affected the gut motility of the snakes? Was the hair a proximate cause of death or a symptom of another condition or serendipity? Was there sufficient hair to be a problem or was this similar to fiber binding in other animals (as hair takes the place of fiber in the digestive tract)?
What percent of the captive population your friend was study constituted these premature deaths? Was this seen in all deaths in this study or only some? Was this present in some of the animals that were known to die of other causes?
There is nothing wrong with anecdotal information as long as it is kept in perspective as the majority of the hobby is built on anecdotal information.

snip "The one thing I can vouch for, is that I've never had a problem feeding platyrhinos toads and frogs (their primary prey). They certainly eat rodents in the wild, though not with any frequency. So the problem, with current information, is that feeding an exclusive diet of rodents will cause no harm. That claim is based on flagrant ignorance, especially when compounded with "there's no need to feed them anurans." There is no reliable evidence that an exclusive diet of rodents causes no harm, yet there is a vast amount of knowledge in regard to their natural diet."

Did you see my comments on natural diets above that at this time there is basically no such thing with relation to captive native herps? I hate to say it, but the comment about ignorance can be applied equally well to the claim that they need to be fed a anuran only diet. At best all that can be said is that there is insufficient evidence either way.
Knowing what they eat in the wild may have no bearing in the end what a suitable captive diet consists of. For well established examples, I direct you to consider dog foods, cat foods, rodent chows, pelleted bird foods, and flake fish foods. The knowledge of what a natural diet was the basis for the formulation of the diet but foods foriegn to the natural diet that supply the same nutrients are used to complete the diet. For example can you direct me to any canid that eats barley or rice as part of the natural diet (excepting accidental consumption along with the stomach and small intestions)?

Some thoughts (things have been busy so it takes a couple of days to get back to this thread).

Ed

I would like to point out for the benefit of other forum visitors, that the examples of the snakes that were mentioned above to have died from being switched to an all rodent diet, there were no formal causes of death listed. I realize that Mr. Bartlett may have mentioned this in passing, but the majority of observations made about Eastern hognoses that have died from being fed rodents, were not actually necropsied and evaluated by a veterinarian to determine a cause of death. Coincidences or not, speculating about the cause of death does no good without having a veterinarian look at the animal!

The majority of the time I find information like this, there's no mention as to whether or not the snake was tested for endoparasites, which has been implicated as a major source of mortality for wild caught hognoses. I would also like to point out that despite my research on the subject, I have not been able to find anyone who could provide me with a necropsy report providing a cause of death related to a rodent diet. In fact, I have yet to find a single supporting document for the infamous "fatty liver disease" that seems to trail behind the rodent diet!
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"I know the human being and fish can coexist peacefully."
Governor George W. Bush, Jr.

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."
Calvin and Hobbes (Scientific Progress Goes 'Boink', 1991)

just thought i'd put in my 2 cents. i feel that the diet of eastern hogs is an issue that needs to be adressed.. but everyone is pinning a solution on a problem that in the big picture is not the main issue. I have seen easterns thrive and breed on a diet of mainly rodents and live to a ripe old age. the source of most peoples misery with eastern hogs is not the fact of wether they feed them mice or toads it is the reality that you cannot feed a boby hognose like a baby ball python, simply said hognoses have a very fast metabolism and plainly will not grow on one food item every eight days. it kills me to see people on this fourm saying that they feed there baby hog 1 pinky a week and the picture they post depicts a scrawny lethargic, and generally weak snake. personally I feed my easterns a diet of mainly mice with the ocassional gulfcoast toad. and I'm sure many people will dis-agree with me but I believe that the #1 cause of hognose death is not "fatty liver disease" but human ignorance.
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Be excellent to each other...and Party on dude!

I agree that in many cases it is the keepers who are at fault. To maintain a snake successfully you must understand not only its natural history but its biology.
Personally, I allow the snakes to tell me when they wish to eat. A sated hog-nose is usually quiet and lethargic, happy just to sit and digest. A hungry snake manifests a far greater interest in its surroundings, up to and including actively crawling in an attempt to forage.
But beyond that, I pretty much disagree with your conclusions. Heterodon platyrhinos is very different from H. nasicus, and H. simus is somewhere between the two. I have watched eastern after eastern, normals and albinos, reds and black, fail to thrive when when subjected to care under which a nasicus would thrive. Keeper care. I think not. The keepers have been talented breeders and herpetoculturists who DO understand the snakes, yet the platirhinos have languished. I agree-- some make it on a diet of rodents, a few even breed, but to justify your comments, you must have been watching a very different segment of the platirhinos population than I have. And whether it is starvation or fatty-liver---neither need happen. Rgds/Dick

I would like to clarify that i did not intend to send the message that easterns can be kept in the same conditions as westerns. nasicus is different species therefore requiring different husbandry needs. what i was trying to get across was the fact that easterns can be kept in captivity sucessfully but again they are not for everyone.
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Be excellent to each other...and Party on dude!

To clarify, the population of easterns that heterodon62 has and the ones I breed are all Houston/east Texas locale(heterodon62's hogs are my babies)...note sure if it makes a huge difference. I live in New Iberia, La. and the easterns around here seem to perfer frogs/toads over rodent. I have one specimen that was caught as a hatchling and thrived on f/t toads and frogs and would never accept a scented mouse of any age.- this hognose is a male and was fed three times a week on various combos of bronze and gulf coast toads. He grew from a 8" hatchling to a 26" giant in a year only on this. He passed up the growth of the rodent fed males. My F1 and F2 houston hogs eat rodents without problems....makes me wonder about the locales. I would like some documentation of how often easterns eat in the wild. I would say a growing eastern needs an abundant source of toads and frogs. If my male was fed only 1 toad a week, he would have surely died(as a neonate). As adults they can be fed much less, depending on individual needs(steady weight etc).....of course Im not implying this is the best idea..only offering my experiece.
Joey

I wanted to assure you that the captive diets of eastern hognoses IS being addressed, namely by myself and a few other people who post on this forum. We are currently trying to arrange a formal experiment using both rodent and toads fed Easterns under the supervision of a zoological nutritionist.

We hope to have some content on our web site very soon. www.easternhognose.com
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"I know the human being and fish can coexist peacefully."
Governor George W. Bush, Jr.

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."
Calvin and Hobbes (Scientific Progress Goes 'Boink', 1991)

>>and be sure to mention that in the real world, platyrhinos very rarely consume rodents (there is a popular myth on this forum that suggests otherwise). Shane

I am only posting for the benefit of other forum visitors on this topic. Shane and I have had a few discussions on this before where scientific literature was presented. It is true that amphibians certainly make up the majority of an Eastern hognoses diet, but it would be incorrect to group rodents into the "rare" category for something that has been shown to make up to 20% of their diet.

Rodents are NOT foreign to an Eastern's system, especially when they are known to consume many other food items such as invertebrates and turtle eggs.
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"I know the human being and fish can coexist peacefully."
Governor George W. Bush, Jr.

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."
Calvin and Hobbes (Scientific Progress Goes 'Boink', 1991)