Reptile & Amphibian Forums

The debate on what we 'shouldn't' say on this forum has come up several times recently. This may be with regards to stunning the prey item being offered, or anything related. While I think its important to exercize a certain amount of tact in what we say, I dont think its conducive to the community to feel as though we are restricted in what we can and can't say because we are in essence depriving others of certain information. All because of fear that 'anti-reptile groups' will further push restrictions on our hobby. The reality is that the forums play an insignificant role (in my opinion) in the 'fuel' for their fire. They are using abandoned burm statistics, rare attack stories, along with other factors to validate their claims.

In the past I've heard people get graphic in certain methods of dispatching prey items. Many of these posts were unneccesary and just plain brutal in their description. Yet someone mentions stunning and we try to quiet them down. This isnt an attack on anyone who has concerns of people using these forums against the hobby, but just my opinion that we should draw the line somewhere and not be scared to discuss certain legitimate topics with regards to reptile husbandry/practices if they are posted in a tasteful manner.

Well said...i personally am not bothered by stunning.
If you say stun people freak out and if you say you feed live people freak out...so either way you are screwed.

To be a responsible reptile keeper, WE (that is, those of us representing the herpetological community who are RESPONSIBLE KEEPERS) must portray ourselves as responsible and ethical people who take the necessary steps in ensuring that our animals are healthy, that the keepers are responsible, and, that prey items being used are either humanely dispatched, or, if fed live, closely supervised. The practice of "stunning" is a brutal one and something that I feel gives our hobby a big black eye. Plus, it is completely unnecessary. I have worked with 1000's of reptiles over the years and I have never once ever had to do such a horrific thing; its just wrong and there's no arguing about it. Because of my role as a professional herpetologist, and, in working closely with MANY groups and agencies, you are DEAD WRONG if you think they don't use these forums to help their cause...they do! It may not be public, but the "right" people are seeing them and it only hurts our cause. The real reason why our hobby is going right down the drain is that we have too many IRRESPONSIBLE, uneducated and just dead beat hobbyists who are killing it for the responsible folks who do portray us in the right light. If my state puts an all out ban on reptiles, I will continue to enjoy my "hobby" because I have the permits to keep any reptile at my wildlife center; but that would be a real, crying shame. I become vocal and quite "preachy" at times but its only because I want to protect the rights of individuals (responsible ones!) while also ensuring that the animals being kept by unqualified people at least have a chance to live a decent life (most don't).

Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center

>>Well said...i personally am not bothered by stunning.
>>If you say stun people freak out and if you say you feed live people freak out...so either way you are screwed.
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

with the practice of "stunning". I have been maintaining a boid collection for over 35 years and have never once had to resort to this practice. Your post was right on the mark. Thanks,

Kelly

Being fairly active with dealing with the public though my herp society I am very carefull to create the right depiction of the herp keeping community. Stunning I would have to say is a practice there is no need even mentioning because there is no need and the risks are severe even without adding the cruelty aspect.

I think the thread has been veering off the topic. I am in NO way condoning the practice of 'stunning' prey. I have said before that I'm against it because I think its cruel. The point was that I felt it was unfortunate that we have to censor ourselves and that we should draw the line somewhere.

>>Being fairly active with dealing with the public though my herp society I am very carefull to create the right depiction of the herp keeping community. Stunning I would have to say is a practice there is no need even mentioning because there is no need and the risks are severe even without adding the cruelty aspect.

You're right. But this is another example of why it is better to not put burms in the hands of kids. By kid I mean anyone under 18, that is when you are considered an adult. And even then, most adults aren't responsible enough to have them either. If they were, there would be less of an issue in New York, the Everglades etc. Let's face it. We as a society will ALWAYS make things worse on ourselves. And it's the few making it bad for the many. Have you seen I Robot, where the central computer found a way to save mankind? Do away with those who screw it up. I kinda liked that.
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DZ

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- George Orwell

The topic brought up was about stunning. For no reason does anyone need to talk about it because it should never be done. It is a terrible practice and people reading this and seeing people are doing it or recommending it can seriously be offended and you need to be carefull who you offend about this stuff. Now I agree people do not have any right to not be offended and it is going to happen many times throughout someone's life...but in this situation we are the ones with too much to risk to go making the wrong people mad about something that does not even need to be mentioned since it is pretty much in agreement by most experienced people there is no benefit and certainly the risks would outweigh any possible benefit anyone thinks there may be. I can be a very light hearted person and joke all the time with sarcastic remarks and such...but I try and be pretty seriouse when I am in any large constrictor or venomous forum. Your margin for error simply doesn't exist these days. Without someone to correct damaging information given within these forums, you are simply allowing people to beleive the majority condones it. Believe me, I am not about censorship at all...put full frontal nudity on basic cable or even network tv after certain hours if you want. But leave irresponsible keeping practices out of the forums when your passion for the snakes you keep and dedicate countless hours to is at stake. Don't you see if Rob Carmichael actually said he believes it is acceptable for a 15 year old kid to keep a python which has potential to reach massive weights and lengths well over 20 ft (I know it isnt common but people only see records) it would make us all look like morons when our highest respected professionals would put a potentially dangerous animal in the hands of a minor. I think people on this forum in particular are not harsh enough to be honest. Say what you are REALLY thinking Rob.

Different people view different animals with varying degree of value. Most would cuddle a rabbit but squash a rat with their shoe. What's the difference? They're both little rodents with warm bellies and soft fur.

Usually when Mr. Charmichael gives advice, then a good reason to support it, we should listen. Stunning, killing, live...again, everyone has their own opinion but...Rob has dealt with those who want to shut us down. He knows what to stay away from and keeps fighting the fight to keep our hobby alive. I'm sure the people in New York don't have much more "evidence" to go by then the mass fear of snakes and they add the treatment of prey items. I'll bet New Yorkers now wish they were more careful with the little things. It doesn't matter what is real or not.
Perception is reality to those to ignorant to tell the difference. People react on perception as much as they do on reality.
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DZ

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- George Orwell

What exactly is properly killed then..if i'm allowed to say killed here...i bash the back of the head into somthing hard, but that doesnt always kill right away (oops said that word again) I guess i could build a gas chamber but that doesnt sound real humane either...die of suffocation..that sounds like a great way to go. The animal rights people are gonna freak no matter how we kill them..they dont want anything to die and that is their goal.

Jason

a rodent placed into a co2 chamber that is filled with co2 will die in mere seconds. It is the accepted method of euthanizing rodents and is the only humane way to do it. Stunning is not a science and most of the time the animal soes not die instantly. Then you have a animal that is pissed off and very upset. Not only is this cruel to the prey item but becomes dangerous to your snake. If you were in a bar and someone hit you in the head with a bottle. You would hurt and you would be upset and would look to seek revenge on anyone around. That is the same way a rat reacts to being whacked on the head. Todd

everyone keeps saying humane and killing....dont you understand that the animal rights people wont see a humane way of killing anything...they wont be happy till none of you own snakes and none of you feed them anything...

>>everyone keeps saying humane and killing....dont you understand that the animal rights people wont see a humane way of killing anything...they wont be happy till none of you own snakes and none of you feed them anything...

Precisely. So if they are our opponents, it is only common sense to give them as little ammunition as humanly possible. Stunning is part of that ammunition.

Our wisest tactic will be in two directions. To treat our pets and their food as knowledgeably and humanely as possible. And to help ease the public out of the "EEEEEK! A SNAKE!" mentality, through responsible ownership and education.

We may not be able to reason with the animal rightists, but the public can be be reasoned with, if slowly. And public opinion, is what we can affect and need to.
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0.2 chickens
0.2 dog mutts (half ownership, only mine when they misbehave)
0.1 Halflinger horse
0.0 Arizona Mountain Kingsnake (coming soon)
1.1 parents
Still searching for 1.0 WC human

so if i say kill than thats different.
I personally dont stun anything i either kill it or the snake does..and i'm not gonna call it dispatchhed or any other PC word you choose to use...i just cant believe that you guys think that because you get all PC or dont say stunned that the animal rights people are gonna be trying less to take your animals away.
There is no winning with those people...

>>so if i say kill than thats different.
>>I personally dont stun anything i either kill it or the snake does..and i'm not gonna call it dispatchhed or any other PC word you choose to use...i just cant believe that you guys think that because you get all PC or dont say stunned that the animal rights people are gonna be trying less to take your animals away.
>>There is no winning with those people...

I'm not saying we should reason with the animal rights people. Frankly I think they're psycho (I mean comparing killing chickens for food to the holocaust???) and no amount of PC wording will slow them down.

However, look at the average Joe (or Jill) with 2.5 kids, cat, dog and parakeet. The thought of a snake keeper severely injuring a furry mammal and tossing the dying animal to a snake is disturbing to them and for damn good reason.
But replace the scenario with a rat humanely euthanized via CO2 (euthanasia isn't a PC term but perfectly accurate so long as it refers to a painless and reliable way to kill an animal) and then fed to a snake. That would be far more acceptable to the average person.

The animal rightists aren't looking for things to piss themselves off with, (they're already plenty ticked off in general) they're looking for things they can use to shock and disturb the public with.
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0.2 chickens
0.2 dog mutts (half ownership, only mine when they misbehave)
0.1 Halflinger horse
0.0 Arizona Mountain Kingsnake (coming soon)
1.1 parents
Still searching for 1.0 WC human

I would have to agree with you. A fanatic is by definition (A person motivated by irrational enthusiasm), the key word there being irrational. You are not going to reason with them and win.
On the other hand the "average Joe/Jill" eats their fair share of meat every year and can be reasoned with, at least in my experience. What does tend to put them off, and I've had it happen, is reading a post by someone who seems to get their jollies hurting the rat or killing it in an inventive albeit unnecessarily slow, cruel fashion. Even a vegetarian can be reasoned with to some extent. At least I've never personally met one who had given any thought to the homeless rabbit, or to the one that accidently went through the reaper.
Bill
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1.0 normal burmese
1.1 coastal carpets
0.0.4 ball pythons
1.0 amazon tree boa
1.0 lovable mutt
1.1 mice
1.1 guinea pigs
1.0 ferret
0.2 silly cats

I thought you were smarter than this. It isn't about what's real, it's about perception. I hate PC more than most people but there is a time when we must shut up and color. In the military it took me 15 years to finally acknowledge the fact that as long as your dealing with irrational/ignorant people, especially those with more power/influence than you, you will usually lose and your fight will be for nothing. At the end you will be exhausted and then must be ready to fight again and again. If your the one who is always fighting, they stop listening to you altogether. You have to find a way to play the game and strike at the right time. Mentioning killing and stunning on this forum will do no good for the forum. If you can't see that, I was wrong about you.
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DZ

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- George Orwell

I started a thread on this kind of thing a while back. About pics posted here of our snakes eating a cute furry bunny.
Imagine those pics, in front of a legislator, or to a group of people at a mall. Do you think they'd be inclined to side with the snake, or the fluffy bunny??
We need to be vigilant about our hobby. It's not censorship...it's good sense.
Anything we put here, or anywhere can be as ammo.
Stunning, gas chambers, killing. Hell...we all know it exists, but for our hobby, do we need to put the killing in open forum?
Not neccesary! We have email...we have other ways to post.
Let's use a little common sense. And dont be ignorant thinking that the animal rights groups dont use these forums.
I deal with political issues in the sport of hunting, and I deal with these groups often. Sat in court with them...fought them.They want us, and they will twist anything we say, anything we show to their advantage.
All we need to do is think first, and be careful about what we post.
As my previous thread said..we've all seen our snakes eat...why post more pics of it here?
We can boast and brag all we want...but that really does'nt hold up well when an anti herp law comes up before the legislature.

Do you think KS should get rid of the feeder food forum then??

So then you should also see how important it is to avoid certain phrases. If you care enough, you'll control yourself, no-one would have to tell you where the importance lies and even morso, that you shouldn't fight someone giving you good advice just because you have freedom of speech. Almost everything we do effects someone else whether we realize it or not. If anyone is hard headed enough to get good advice and not heed it, shut up about it and let others learn, learn how to survive this hobby. This is one of the worst political games I've seen. We can't be realistic about our hobby because so many people are ignorant to it. Because of this ignorance they change laws governing the keeping of herps. The only way to keep them off our back is take away what they use against us by shutting up when we should. It isn't fair but we've made it that way.
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DZ

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- George Orwell

Does anyone know if the animal rights fanatics or general non snake keeping public have a big problem with feeding live?? I wonder if they feel its more humane.