Reptile & Amphibian Forums

4'long, about 18" high and back. Will use Pro-Products radiant heat panel connected to stat for top, ultrasonic humidifier on 14 program timer for humidity. Having trouble finding the track for the glass. Also, when I put the hides in, the inside of the hides stay cold. Looking for a way to heat the floor (using 3/4" plywood covered with linoleum for easy cleaning) so the hides don't get colder than 82 but would like to go up to 85. I ain't using no flexwatt. I've tried and failed and don't like the stuff. Can anyone give me a workable solution to heating the floor. Thinking pig blanket but how hot do they get? How big are they etc? Also thinking of using an electric heater to push hot water through copper pipes under the cage floor. That one is a long shot but not out of my reach. Please advise.
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DZ

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- George Orwell

What problems were you having with flexwatt?

Why did you have to ask me that? Now that I think about it, I really don't know. Just that I was afraid to install it for fear it would be unsafe or not work. After I posted I thought about maybe trying again as I tried giving the stuff away and no-one wanted it. I was thinking maybe laying glass down on the bottom of the wood cage like a floor window, then putting the flexwatt under it. The floor will be 4 feet long and about 18 inches wide. The flexwatt is 3 feet of 11 inch panels. What's your take on using it like this?
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DZ

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- George Orwell

hey i wanted the flexwatt! lol. still do. lol. but what kind of substrate do you have? the thicker substrate you have will help with the retention of heat along the bottom. Also, what size heating panel are you using?

I have 4 cages approx 24" tall and i have RHP's in all and they heat fine to the bottom.

I have some glass tanks still in use and they have blacklights being used for heat - that keeps my hides warm also.
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-Chris

The reason mainstream thought is thought of as a stream is because it's so shallow. -George Carlin

A fool doesn't learn. A smart man learns from his mistakes. A wise man learns from the mistakes of others. Which one are you?

My Website
N. American Rat/Corn snake care sheet I wrote
Information on substrates

Current snakes:
0.1 Licorice Stick Black Rat (Lola)
1.0 Black Rat (Frankie)
0.1 Texas Bairdi (Rosa)
0.1 Blue Beauty (Brunhilde)
1.0 Green Tree Python (Monty)

I am in the process of building a new enclosure right now.
A 4'tall one for a Monkey Tail Skink.I am starting out with lights at the top, and will be switching those to an RHP when I have a little more cash.
And because of the height I need to heat from below as well.
I am doing something like you mentioned.
A glass floor. I an using 1/4" plexi for a floor, with a UTH attached to that.I should easily be able to keep the floor temps at around 80*, and the basking temps around 90*.
Using the plexi floor and UTH ( I'll probably use an Ultratherm)
And then adding the RHP...and putting everything on a thermostat, this set up should cost very little to run.

>>A glass floor. I an using 1/4" plexi for a floor, with a UTH attached to that.

There are better choices that Plexi/acrylic given it's a decent insulator and a better blocker of radiant heat. This could cause the UTH to overheat.

Sintra or FRP are better choices.
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Current snakes:

0.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Silver/Yellow)

3.3 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Green)

2.1 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black)

3.3 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black & Tan)

Chris...I'll be leaving a large space beheath the floor, to allow for good air flow, and I will be punching a few holes in the acrylic for the heat to pass through.
I'll also be using a dimmer. I dont need to keep temps overly high.
But are you telling me, acrylic keeps heat from passing through more than glass?
Now I find this out??? lol

>>But are you telling me, acrylic keeps heat from passing through more than glass?

Acrylic has a higher R value and a greater reflective value that standard glass. Neither of those characteristics lead to an efficient means of undertank heating. Low E glass may be different, but I can't imagine you'd use that for a cage floor.

I'm sure you're aware of the warnings not to use RHP's over screen tops. Using UTH's, heat tape, etc. under glass or acrylic has a similar effect - it can reflect the radiant portion of heat back into the heating element.
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Current snakes:

0.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Silver/Yellow)

3.3 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Green)

2.1 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black)

3.3 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black & Tan)

Here is where it gets confusing.
So the radiant heat is reflected back off the glass,yet the UTH is made to use under a glass tank...and acrylic/plexi is worse?
Please let me know on this, because I cut the plexi floor tonight, and a false floor to go under that ( 3" below )
I'll just install the wooden floor in place of the plexi floor, and chalk this up to experience.

Bob

>>So the radiant heat is reflected back off the glass,yet the UTH is made to use under a glass tank...

The regular glass used in tanks is a poor insulator (R value) but does block some radiant energy. So yes, UTH's can transfer radiant energy through glass but that does not make glass the ideal material to use over a UTH. There are cheaper and lighter materials to choose from, not to mention better conductors of heat.

So when planning a cage from scratch glass is not a good choice for the floor, especially when using an UTH.

>>and acrylic/plexi is worse?

Yes.

>>Please let me know on this, because I cut the plexi floor tonight, and a false floor to go under that ( 3" below )
>>I'll just install the wooden floor in place of the plexi floor, and chalk this up to experience.

You can use the plexi but it may warp, yellow and shorten the life of your heating element. But it's likely better than a wooden floor.

As far as I know expanded PVC is the ideal material for cage floors. Easy to clean, conducts heat, and has decent thermal mass. It's also very light. Exactly what we need for cage floors, IMO, provided it's not for a scratching species.
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Current snakes:

0.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Silver/Yellow)

3.3 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Green)

2.1 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black)

3.3 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black & Tan)

Sorry about all the questions..I can build pretty much anything...wire it, plumb it...destroy it...
the technical aspect, I'm not sure of.
So is acrylic a dangerous thing to use for the bottom of an enclosure?
Should I just use plain wood?

>>Sorry about all the questions..I can build pretty much anything...wire it, plumb it...destroy it...

LOL. So where were you during my building-a-shop thread?

>>So is acrylic a dangerous thing to use for the bottom of an enclosure?

Probably not, especially with a 3" air space/subfloor. But it's certainly not ideal.

>>Should I just use plain wood?

That's probably not very good, either. Unless you cut a hole out of it and cover it with expanded PVC.

If you already have the acrylic and absolutely can't see using it for another project then go ahead and use it. Understand that many people on this forum have reported poor success when using UTH's or flexwatt underneath acrylic cages.
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Current snakes:

0.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Silver/Yellow)

3.3 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Green)

2.1 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black)

3.3 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black & Tan)

A while back someone posted a website that sold expanded PVC. I know it was somewhat expensive but if you know the site, could you post so I can maybe order some and quit hunting the stores for it?

Thanx!
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DZ

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- George Orwell

http://www.usplastic.com

I believe they sell partial sheets.

Are you sure you've called all your local sign shops?
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Current snakes:

0.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Silver/Yellow)

3.3 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Green)

2.1 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black)

3.3 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black & Tan)

The only sign shop I know of belongs to the base I live near and they only do work for the base. I'll look again and thanx for the site.
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DZ

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- George Orwell

Flexwatt defiately works well. I have it on 13 tanks. I am currently building my own tanks with flexwatt underneath. It is safe to use, but if it were inside the tank under glass, water or urine may get under the glass and cause an elctrical problem. I should work fine under the cage. Use aluminum foil tape to stick to your cage. Derek

>>Having trouble finding the track for the glass.

There was a recent thread on this. Or order the minimum order from Outwater Plastics. It will likely still be cheaper

>>Also, when I put the hides in, the inside of the hides stay cold.

Use hides made of a conductive material and with thermal mass. Clay pots were mentioned the other day. Supplemental heat to the floor is still an opion, though.

>>Looking for a way to heat the floor (using 3/4" plywood covered with linoleum for easy cleaning)...

Skip the linoleum and use Sintra over a floor cutout. Then put a UTH over that. Or this that too closely related to flexwatt?

>>Thinking pig blanket but how hot do they get? How big are they etc?

No matter what you use you'll likely need to control it. A pig blanket may be overkill.

>>Also thinking of using an electric heater to push hot water through copper pipes under the cage floor.

This is doable. Again, the Sintra over a hole cutout is probably better. If you can't find Sintra, then FRP should work given it's the part of RHP's that the heat radiates through.
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Current snakes:

0.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Silver/Yellow)

3.3 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Green)

2.1 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black)

3.3 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black & Tan)

I like the foil tape idea. The panel will not be in the tank with glass over it. I will route, from the top of the floor, a groove for the glass to sit into the floor. Seal the edges with silicone, then cover. I like the Sintra/FRP but have a hard time fiding it. Is the FRP the bumpy white plastic that comes in 4X8 sheets for showers and such?

I was also thinking of making wooden supports along the bottom that will support the glass and hold the flexwatt in place. Maybe put some foil tape over the wood support for fire safety reasons. Chris, you mentioned insulating props for the plexi. Does real glass insulate also or transfer heat?

I'll use newspaper for substrate. Right now I have aspen bedding but it's messy and costs money. I can get newspapers for free all day long.

I'll probably use the 24X15 RHP from my burm cage, then buy a bigger one for the burm. I know it's overkill but it will not be on as much. In the burm cage it's on most of the time. I want a bigger panel that won't have to work as hard.

Flexwatt...I was thinking of putting an in-line fuse on the hot side of the power wire. Then connecting it to a dimmer. My theory is if something goes wrong the fuse will pop and shut down the connection. What size fuse would be good for 3 11" panels in series?
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DZ

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- George Orwell

>>I like the Sintra/FRP but have a hard time fiding it. Is the FRP the bumpy white plastic that comes in 4X8 sheets for showers and such?

Yes, that's what FRP is. I've not used it in a situation where heat transfer was needed but I BELIEVE it's the face material in both Helix and ProProducts Radiant Heat Panels. Must be pretty good I imagine.

>>Chris, you mentioned insulating props for the plexi. Does real glass insulate also or transfer heat?

Glass is generally a poorer insulator compared to acrylic. But R values don't really don't tell you necessarily how good something is at blocking radiant heat, the type of heat used by undertanks heating sources.

In general glass will block radiant heat better than FRP or Sintra (again, assuming that FRP is what's used in RHP's) so I'd be inclined to avoid it.
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Current snakes:

0.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Silver/Yellow)

3.3 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Green)

2.1 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black)

3.3 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black & Tan)