Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi there:

As you all know, I keep many small terrestrial snakes. However, there is something that I wanted some opinions on. I enjoy breeding snakes, but do you really think anyone is going to pay a lot of money for a Dekay's snake? I don't think so.
I LOVE these snakes, but do not see any point in breeding them. Would you still consider it worthwhile to keep only one of each species? By doing this, I can save room, and still find out about how and what these diminutive species eat, how they live (hours of activity, preferred environment), how large they grow, or even what diseases they may catch, and unfortunately, die from.
I have 1 SK, 1 night snake, 1 s. ringneck, as well as my breeder pair of w. hognoses, and breeder rough green snakes. I am considering getting some hooknoses, because I am into diminutive burrowing species. However, I really currently only have the money to buy just 1.
Is there any point in just keeping a hooknose snake to learn about it, or is it only worthwhile to breed these animals? It seems that everytime someone obtains a new species, their first thoughts revolve around breeding. I think breeding is interesting, but I like to limit the number, especially with a rare species, to just one. Would you consider the one rule worthwhile? Should I buy a hooknose, just to study?

P.S. I turned in my film. The pictures should be up by Tuesday, after 1:00. Stay tuned! Unfortunately, I did not get any feeding shots of the night snake, but hopefully, seeing the numerous bulges in his belly will prove enough for now. I'll get some feeding pics. in the future.
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DAVE

1.0 Western green toad
1.1 green treefrogs
1.0 Florida blue garter snake
0.1 Asian long-tailed grass lizard
1.0 Mediterranean gecko
1.1 Oriental fire-bellied toads
1.0 American bullfrog
0.1 Spanish ribbed newt
1.1 Eastern ribbon snakes
1.1red-cheeked mud turtles
0.1 Dubia day gecko
1.0 Sonoran gopher snake
1.1 rough green snakes
1.1 giant African black millipedes
1.0 Okeetee corn snake
0.1 Albino African clawed frog
1.0 Kenyan sand boa
0.0.1 Argentine flame-bellied toadlet
0.0.1 African bullfrog
1.0 yellow * Everglades rat snake intergrade
1.1 Western hognose snakes
0.1 fire salamander
1.0 scarlet kingsnake
0.0.1 Argentine horned frog
0.0.1 southern ringneck snake
0.0.1 night snake
0.0.3 eastern worm snakes

As you all know, I keep many small terrestrial snakes. This is seeming kind of odd to me, how you say you keep "many" small terrestrial snakes, when really, you only have what, 5 that would count as being small terrestrial snakes??

I enjoy breeding snakes, but do you really think anyone is going to pay a lot of money for a Dekay's snake? I don't think so.You're wrong, hell, I'd pay $200 for a brown snake morph, amel, leucistic, I'd buy it in a heartbeat.

Would you still consider it worthwhile to keep only one of each species? It is. Simply study one, and when you get another one, maybe then you can breed them, in alot of the studies and captive experiments I do, breeding is often one of the topics I like to cover. In your case, with the hooknose snakes, not much is known about their breeding habits, so maybe you should consider getting the pair instead.

However, I really currently only have the money to buy just 1. Email me and tell me how much they are for a pair

Should I buy a hooknose, just to study? That is all up to you, I've had success in studying single specimens, it's up to you if you would rather have 1 or 2 to study, of course, with 2 of them you could find out more about them.

Mike
Michael's Place

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Michael's Place has updated better caresheets
Helmz777@aol.com
www.freewebs.com/mikesnake

Hi there:

With so few people keeping these types of snakes, it is difficult for me to consider how many different species in one collection = "many". If 5 is considered only a few species for a smaller snake collection, then I am very glad to hear that. Perhaps more people are working with these snakes than I thought.
I am very happy to hear that you would pay so much for a brown snake. If I had $200, I would also be forking over the money for a morph! Yes, I sure wish I could breed more! However, as I mentioned before, I would rather wait until I can afford a second one. I know that you keep a pine woods snake. 1 pine woods snake. Have you gotten any interesting observations from that, and would you consider keeping that worthwhile?
I am just wondering, because it seems that everyone thinks you have to have a huge number of something in order to learn anything from them. I have a plan for the hooknose project that just might work. I did this with my red-cheeked mud turtles, and I now have an incubator holding 5 eggs. I may just buy one hooknose now, establish it, get it healthy and eating, maybe film it, and wait a few months (with the turtles it was a week!). By then I should have the $$ for another, and I could introduce that into the established snakes territory.
When I did that the mud turtles mated immediately! One problem though; how would I know I had a pair? The animals are not sexed, and I imagine it would cost more to have such a thing done. The main question is, if you see a small terrestrial snake that you are interested in, and want to study, is it worth buying one? I think just 1 hooknose could lead to some very interesting studies.
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DAVE

1.0 Western green toad
1.1 green treefrogs
1.0 Florida blue garter snake
0.1 Asian long-tailed grass lizard
1.0 Mediterranean gecko
1.1 Oriental fire-bellied toads
1.0 American bullfrog
0.1 Spanish ribbed newt
1.1 Eastern ribbon snakes
1.1red-cheeked mud turtles
0.1 Dubia day gecko
1.0 Sonoran gopher snake
1.1 rough green snakes
1.1 giant African black millipedes
1.0 Okeetee corn snake
0.1 Albino African clawed frog
1.0 Kenyan sand boa
0.0.1 Argentine flame-bellied toadlet
0.0.1 African bullfrog
1.0 yellow * Everglades rat snake intergrade
1.1 Western hognose snakes
0.1 fire salamander
1.0 scarlet kingsnake
0.0.1 Argentine horned frog
0.0.1 southern ringneck snake
0.0.1 night snake
0.0.3 eastern worm snakes

I think that one would be worth while.

I've never read anything about captive hooknose care.

What kind of set up is ideal (size, substrate, humidity, water (they're a desert species, do they drink?), lighting, heating)?

What do they eat in captivity (in the wild, I've read they feed primarily on spiders, will they take crickets, mealworms, vertebrates?)

It would only take one specimen to answer these questions. Then, even if you don't decide to buy a second hooknose for breeding, by sharing your experiences you will have laid the foundation for anyone else who would like to keep / breed the species.

-Alice

P.S. It never even crossed my mind that a night snake would take fish!

Hi there:

OK! One neat little hooknose it is! I started out keeping one caecilian, and that led to a great interest that made me end up keeping many! Yep, the night snake taking fish surprised me too. Someone on this forum said they know a guy who's night snake took fish, so I gave it a try, and what do you know? It worked! See, I only keep 1 night snake, and look at all of the neat stuuf that's happening. You're right!
I guess I'm like the canary in the coal mine. I'll send myself into the world of virtually unkept species, breath in the fumes, and tell everyone if it's all right to come in! I guess keeping one specimen of a certain species is OK after all, especially with these little snakes, because so little is known. Thanks! Your message has put me in a whole new state of mind.
P.S. I am so relieved to know that you are up right now! I thought I was the only person sitting at my computer at 2:30 AM, listening to trance music, and checking the small terrestrial snake forum!
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DAVE

1.0 Western green toad
1.1 green treefrogs
1.0 Florida blue garter snake
0.1 Asian long-tailed grass lizard
1.0 Mediterranean gecko
1.1 Oriental fire-bellied toads
1.0 American bullfrog
0.1 Spanish ribbed newt
1.1 Eastern ribbon snakes
1.1red-cheeked mud turtles
0.1 Dubia day gecko
1.0 Sonoran gopher snake
1.1 rough green snakes
1.1 giant African black millipedes
1.0 Okeetee corn snake
0.1 Albino African clawed frog
1.0 Kenyan sand boa
0.0.1 Argentine flame-bellied toadlet
0.0.1 African bullfrog
1.0 yellow * Everglades rat snake intergrade
1.1 Western hognose snakes
0.1 fire salamander
1.0 scarlet kingsnake
0.0.1 Argentine horned frog
0.0.1 southern ringneck snake
0.0.1 night snake
0.0.3 eastern worm snakes

A guy in rear fanged snake feeds his for yrs now rosy reds. He said they couldnt be easier.
The hooknose snake you mention sounds interesting. I never heard of one. Is it a snake that enjoys digging in the soil to go under ground?
which of all your small snakes do you like the best?
Rita

Have you gotten any interesting observations from that, and would you consider keeping that worthwhile?

So far, no, it hasn't been worthwhile to keep it, but that is only because the snake is somewhat of a problem feeder, it will only take live animals, and the best I can do is offer it frozen/thawed frogs and anoles. I'm getting 20 frogs on Wednesday from a guy in Florida, so things with the pine woods snake will start to kick up.

No matter what though, just keeping one specimen of a species, you could still learn much stuff that is unheard of. Sometimes snakes will amaze you.

Oh by the way, you should hook me up with a baby red cheek

Mike
Michael's Place

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Michael's Place has updated better caresheets
Helmz777@aol.com
www.freewebs.com/mikesnake

Hooknose snakes do not do well at all in captivity. They apparently only eat a small species of gecko and refuse other types of geckos and die quick from assist feeding. If you can get one that eats fish then heck, you gotta show me the pics. Oh, and I heard they do not even eat the entire gecko but rater bite the tail and eat the tail as the gecko lets the tail off its body.

Dan

You've got them confused with Leaf-nosed snakes (Phyllorhynchus sp) which are banded gecko feeders. Hooknosed snakes (Gyalopion sp and Ficimia sp) are reported to feed on spiders, small insects and centipedes. If you don't mind having a very secretive snake and are able to cater to the specialized dietary needs of the species, there is no reason why either one couldn't do well in captivity.
-Alice

Hi there:

It seemed I was really getting into an interesting study with the hooknose snake, but I have made up my mind once and for all. The small terrestrial snakes that I am buying. I found a place that sells GROUND SNAKES for $30 each! And, it just so happens that I will be in that very area in late March on vacation! No shipping charges, and no minimum orders!
By then, I will have enough $$ to buy three. That is what I am doing. I am buying a ground snake trio. I have always wanted some Sonora. I looked at a probability chart on BlackJungle dot com for dart frogs, and it said that for 3 animals, there is a 75% chance that you will have a breeding pair. I like to gamble, so I'll give it a shot. I'm buying 3 Sonora next month when I go out there.
All right, someone tell me EVERYTHING that you know about ground snakes! housing, feeding and BREEDING! Post pictures. Even tell me about their natural history (my favorite part). I want a ground snake library!

THANKS!
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DAVE

1.0 Western green toad
1.1 green treefrogs
1.0 Florida blue garter snake
0.1 Asian long-tailed grass lizard
1.0 Mediterranean gecko
1.1 Oriental fire-bellied toads
1.0 American bullfrog
0.1 Spanish ribbed newt
1.1 Eastern ribbon snakes
1.1red-cheeked mud turtles
0.1 Dubia day gecko
1.0 Sonoran gopher snake
1.1 rough green snakes
1.1 giant African black millipedes
1.0 Okeetee corn snake
0.1 Albino African clawed frog
1.0 Kenyan sand boa
0.0.1 Argentine flame-bellied toadlet
0.0.1 African bullfrog
1.0 yellow * Everglades rat snake intergrade
1.1 Western hognose snakes
0.1 fire salamander
1.0 scarlet kingsnake
0.0.1 Argentine horned frog
0.0.1 southern ringneck snake
0.0.1 night snake
0.0.3 eastern worm snakes

They occupy arid habitats similar to those occupied by the hook nosed and shovel nosed snakes so the basic set up would be the same. They are reported to feed on a broader range on insects and arachnids that the hook nosed (the literature seems to indicate they eat mainly spiders) so they may even be easier to care for/ more likely to accept readily available feeders like crickets.

According to Stebbins they occupy arid and semi arid regions where the soil may be rocky, gravelly, or sandy with some subsurface moisture (you may want to put a straw in the substrate so that you can pour water in it to moisten the very bottom). They are reported to eat spiders, scorpions, centipedes, crickets, sopugids, grasshoppers and insect larvea including ant brood.

-Alice

P.S. Who are you getting them from?

Alice, your right, I got it all mixed up. Yea, it was the patch nosed snakes that are very hard to feed. I have some shovel nosed snakes and they are great. They chase my finger along the cage and rear up like some western diamondback when they get mad. Well good luck with the small stuff as they perhaps are the most interesting of all snakes and I know because I have kept them all for 30 years.

Dan

The patch-nosed are Salvadora sp. (they're easy to convert to pinkies from what I've heard).

There are two species of leaf-nosed in the south western US. The Saddled (Phyllorhynchus brownii) and the Spotted (Phyllorhynchus decurtatus). Both are purported to feed primarily on banded geckos and their eggs. I agree that they would probably be difficult. They still might be interesting to try. Maybe with scenting you could get them to take pinkies (what if you wrapped a pinki in shed gecko skin)? Or, maybe you could take hatched leopard gecko eggs and fill them with chicken egg (I've heard of people doing this for with cornsnake eggs in order to feed scarlet snakes)?

Since I breed leos, I'd definately be tempted to give it a go if I ran across one

-Alice

Which species have you kept? I'd be interested to know what your experiences have been with the species you've worked with.

So far, the only small terrestrial snake I've kept long term is my long-tailed sharp-tailed snake. I've had ring-necks off and on, but here (central CA) the ring-necks are pretty dedicated salamander feeders. I've got a long list of little guys I'd like to try if I happen to run across one.

What kinds of food have you gotten your shovel-noses to take?

-Alice

Your right again, I got the leafnoses, patchnose and all the nose snakes messed up. I guess that what happens when you try to watch the superbowl and email at the same time. I have a patchnose snake and it eats fuzzies, I have a scarlet snake and it eats defrosted pinks with egg on it, I have worked with the leafnose snakes and they have not fed for me. I think those scarlet snakes also eat eggs and spit out the shell, but not sure about it. I watch them drink egg and wiggle their necks and bodies like as if they were seeking to break open an egg. I once had a scarlet that ate pinks without any scent and heard of another person that had one that ate live pinks. I had a hooknose once eating spiders and ran out of spiders, so traded the hooknose snake. I keep about over 200 snakes, 100 different species. A lot of fun and a lot of work.

Dan

Shovelnose snakes are great looking. They are offeed for sale in the area pet store every summer. Do you see them much or mostly they stay buried?
Do you house yours together? I imagine easy to feed insect eaters.
Thanks.
Rita

I have two together eating crickets and they do come out often and excellent eye sight and chase my finger along the cage and often rear up and strike.

Dan

Oh good to know I might look into two come this summer for a 20 gallon long?
what temps do you keep them at?
Rita

They are in the low 80's during the day and upper to mid 70's during the evening. They may be able to shovel their way out of a lid for a 20 gallon so make sure you get a metal lip vice those plastic lids that may leave a gap for them to escape. I have mine in a 10 gallon on play sand with a few rocks here and there and they also hide under the water bowl. And they do need water and drink and I put the bowl in there once a week and they drink from it.

Dan

Thanks for all the advice on their care . Yes the screen has those metal clips allready. I learned few yrs back to use them for all my herps.
Rita