Reptile & Amphibian Forums

This subforum has gotten a little slow so I thought I would start a little something.

Before I tell you what I purchased this pair as I want to know what the consensus is on this forum. I have done plenty of research on these and still am baffled as to what they are for sure. Those of you who I have told the story to cannot guess. LOL

John Lassiter

This is the male Mexicana:

John Lassiter
What type of Mexicana are these???
Here is the female Mexicana:

Thayeri X greeri would be my guess John, could even be a little pyro tossed in for good measure particularly with the female which would explain the light ground color?!!!

Hybrids.....

...and sold as thayeri I would assume?!!!

HYBRIDS!!!

Makisfree,
I will wait to tell the whole story. Let's see what other guesses I get. I thought I already told you the history of this pair.
Thanks for the guess. Let's see who else will take a shot at it.
And if it were Greeri X Thayeri it would be a "cross" not a "hybrid". At least this is what an interesting thread on the main kingsnake forum about terms and definitions is relating.
Thanks,
John Lassiter

By the way, who likes them and who doesn't?

I personally think they are AWESOME!
John Lassiter

They are attractive. I agree with makisfree thayeri x greeri cross, I see some infuence of both then again looks could be decieving and maybe could just be thayeri morphs.
What were they sold to as?
Uncloudy

I agree with Makisfree. To me, the pattern looks like it has Greeri influence but the female has that Pyro intensity in color. I do notice John calls them "mexicana" so....

My guess....White Leonis Thayeri X Greeri

Good lookin critters no matter what they are!

Bill

I purchased the male at the East Texas Herp. Society expo in Houston Texas back in 2002. The vendor sold me this male at a very reasonable price so I took it. I was not fully into Mexicana 3 years ago except for Thayeri. I liked the looks to this snake and took it. After watching it grow I noticed that it did not look like any Mexicana I have seen so I waited till 2003 and picked up a female from the same vendor. This vendor is an ex-employee retired from the Houston Zoo. He says that he has been "line-breeding" these snakes for over 20 years and that they are from founding stock collected by expeditions led by Louie Porras. Louie told me the founding stock for the Houston Zoo was collected by a Robert Hubbard. I purchased these from a Robert Hunkapillar. I do not know if Porras just got the names crossed or if they are actually two different people.
Now, I do not know if line breeding has brought about these anomalies or if by chance there was a cross or two made down the line. I see alot of Thayeri influence in this pair, but they do not look like pure Thayeri (that is not whay I purchased them as). I have spoken to such people as Bob Applegate, Aaron Mattson, Bob Hansen, Robert Hunkapillar and Louie Porras about these Mexicana and nearly everyone sees the Thayeri influence except for the breeder. That was my first reason for questioning them. The breeder/vendor still swears these are pure, but others cannot tell unless DNA analysis is done. I guess I/we will never know what they are for sure,
I purchased these as pure GREERI.
Mike (makisfree) just about hit the nail on the head. No one ever mentioned Pyro before, but I could see where that came from.
Now I still like these alot and I am going to breed them together, but I must sell them as hybrid mexicana since the origin of these are not certain in my opinion.
-John Lassiter-

.....I enjoyed it very much, thanks for the post. Sorry I couldn't carry on with it last night, went to bed quite early. I agree with you that these two animals are quite spectacular looking regardless of what they actually are, and it is even more interesting to think that these could have come from pure greeri founding stock. Not too far out of reach considering the light phase and hypo greeri that have been propagated over the years. And... have you seen Jim Sargents "extreme orange" greeri? It is very close to the male you showed us with the exception of his orange male having a pale orange tint to it's ground color. He states that the father to this orange animal was collected in the Durango Mountains by Louie Porras as well, many years back. Go check out Jim's site...

http://www.splitrockreptiles.com/kingsnakes.html

This all really has me wondering.....

Talk with you soon!

Mike

Good eye Mike.
I know Jim Sargent of Splitrock Reptiles quite well. He got his Greeri from Robert Hunkapillar as I did. Jim believes them to be pure and is selling his offspring as pure whenever they hatch. Greeri can be hard to breed. I think Jim had a problem with one of his females getting eggbound, but I don't remember if it was the peach or light colored ones he got from Robert.

On another note. When I first got these I wanted a normal female to breed the male to to see if the gene was dominant or recessive so I traded one of my light females (I forgot to mention I got a pair in '02) with Eric Kikel. The female he gave me in trade for mine is that dark one I posted here a few times that is a younger sibling to the only striped Greeri in existence. I thought in the back of my head that it would be nice to have a striped light colored Greeri one day, even though I knew the striped gene was not genetic and never proven. It was thought to have occurred through incubation temperatures some way. Eric later let me know that he sold that female I sent him in the trade since he thought it to be a cross with Thayeri as well.

One thing I can say is that this pair is slow growing. The '03 female has almost caught the '02 male. They are only about 18 inches in length but are eating like pigs. I do not think they will make breeding age for '06 but I am going to try to get them close. I may have to wait until '07 to breed them.
John Lassiter

John,
I used to work at the Houston Zoo myself years ago and can vouch for some of the ex-employees you have mentioned. Bobby Hubbard used to be the supervisor of the herp house there back around '75-79. There were lots of herping trips down to Mexico back then. Now, I think the only person still able to get permits to go to Mexico is Alan Kardon from San Antonio. Email me at ackie_nut@yahoo.com if you want to discuss personnel further.
Best...
Jim

This one looks like it might have some "jaguar" coatal python in it.........lol..........has that look a little.........just kidding , but striking looking animals, none the less........mike

That is coincidental because I always thought it looked kinda leopard or jaguar like. LOL!!!!!!!!!!
John Lassiter

John,

I got your email and have looked at the pictures. First I would like to see the belly scalation of the two animals. They are indeed handsome animals. Secondly I know all the players in your story including Jim, Roy and Louie. As far as what they look like at first glance is what was being produced here in Texas by several breeders about 5 years ago that they called "Mixacana" which was a number of crosses with thayeri, greeri and a little alterna for good measure, they line and outbred them specifically for color and pattern. I never attempted to work with them as I have a position on intergrades that will not allow me too, but they did indeed produce some really pretty animals.

Again i would love to see the underside of both animals.

John Cherry
Cherryville Farms

Cherryville Farms - Reptiles

John,
Thank you for the reply. I will get some ventral pics your way tonight.
Do you think there is any possible way that these could be line bred Greeri? They look so Thayeri-like I cannot seem to think they are pure.
Thank you for the information.
John Lassiter