Reptile & Amphibian Forums

This will not be popular but it somebody needs to say it.

State are State is Banning Keeping Venomous snakes. Action is needed to influence these law makers to favor a "Permit" system but unlikely to occur. I know from my experience as president of other large organization that 80% of the people will just sit on their butts and let the 20% left do all the work. Just look at my experience so far with the formation of the NEAVB. I can't even get 100% of the keepers out there to get on onboard. They would rather do nothing and hope they don't get bit and pray that the local Zoo will come to their rescue. As you know this generates very bad press and further fuels the BAN the dangerous mentality people outside the hobby have.

Furthermore, Stupidity is very pervasive in this hobby. Look at Bush_viper17's & timberrattlesnake89's profiles on the SHHS. What were the adults in the pictures thinking?? Why is a King Cobra being handled by MINORS. Why is the damn snake out of it cage in the first place? No HOT snake should be out of its cage for Show & Tell... This act could be considered "Reckless endangerment" and charges filed. If the pictures get taken down I'll send them to anyone who requests it. The guy who was bit in Ohio over the weekend by the Rhino Viper, he was changing the water in the cage, this bite should have never happened. By the way, this was his SECOND BITE. Obviously not a fast learner.

This stupid crap has to stop but who's gonna do it? The State Legislators because the vast majority of keepers will sit on their butts and do nothing or say nothing.

Sincerely,

Al Coritz
neavb.org

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Take nothing but pictures, leave nothing but footprints.

Okay... I was in a hurry and should have proofed the first sentence better:

Should be : State after State

My Apologies

Al
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Take nothing but pictures, leave nothing but footprints.

Al, I couldn't agree with you more (I made some comments to another post below that are also appropriate for this thread). The bottom line is that we have no one to blame but ourselves and our apathy;like you said, STUPIDITY.I am somewhat protected in being able to continue to enjoy working with venomous because of my curatorial role at my wildlife center. But, there are so many highly educated and responsible folks like you who, unfortunately, get put into the same "pan" as the idiots who run rampant in our "community" (and I hate to say it, there are many on these forums!).

There is NO excuse for anyone who keeps venomous to not get on board with your antivenom bank; personally, if people can't afford to either keep their own antivenom, or, join an antivenom resource bank, they shouldn't keep hots; its really that simple. There was a time when I was fairly optimistic that our hobby will be protected but case after case of irresponsible keepiong is just absolutely killing our ability to protect our rights.

Just as an aside, I do "tube" rattlesnakes as part of our rattlesnake conservation education program so that elementary and middle school students have the opportunity to actually touch a live rattler in a safe and controlled setting. I am assuming that some of your comments were not alluding to this type of method in having snakes "out".

Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center
Lake Forest, IL

>>Okay... I was in a hurry and should have proofed the first sentence better:
>>
>>Should be : State after State
>>
>>My Apologies
>>
>>Al
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>>Take nothing but pictures, leave nothing but footprints.
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

Hi Rob:

You are on the front lines of environmental education, a absolute vital role to play. Safe hands on experiences makes a lasting impression on the children you serve. We need the adults of tomorrow to understand the role these animals play in the ecosystem and are not the danger, ignorance is the real danger.

I've said before valid reasons to handle a Hot snakes in captivity. In my opinion they are:

Educational, like your lectures
Moving animals to and from it's cage for maintenence of the cage.
Vet proceedures: medication, forcefeeding etc.

I especially not fond of forcefeeding since both you and the snake are at significant risk but some risks need to be taken.

If at all possible I combine them to limit exposure, for instance. My Puff adder shed and defecated making a huge mess. She was moved with two hooks to a holding box. I cleaned the cage. I got her current weight while in the holding box for my records. I removed her from the box, snapped a few pictures, returned her to the cage. I was sweating bullets the whole time.

I just bought a rainmaker system so I don't have to open cages to mist the ones that require high humidity. I love my animals in my collection. I love them even better from behind the glass.

Cheers!

Al

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Take nothing but pictures, leave nothing but footprints.

As a member of the general public I must say this. I have defended the privelage(not right)of owning and caring for venomous animals. This is a stance I can no longer take. The amount of unqualified people keeping venomous has soared in the last 5 years. Regardless of the reasons for this it cannot be ignored any longer. The hobby itself has failed to find a solution, so the government is now doing what they must. Professional keepers lives ARE being put in jeopardy! I dont want to see a zoo keeper killed because Joe Schmoe used up their African polyvalent the week before because he was to irresponsible to purchase his own. Believe me, I know exotic av's are expensive but its not as expensive as costing someone else their life. If I lose the privelage to own and care for venomous animals then so be it. The good of society should always outweigh the good of the individual. I truly hope it doesnt come to this but I dont see any other solutions being presented by the public. At least I will still be able to see them in the field and in zoological parks. Take care and be safe.

Tom Eason

Ironically, the cost of the SAIMR and other foreign A/V's is actually very inexpensive. You can keep an adequate stock for a single bite for under $300 (far less than keeping A/V for North American species). But, its the process of obtaining the A/V that becomes very restrictive but still easily attainable with a little persistence and perserverence.

I am right there with Al's comments on the amount of contact we should have with our venomous species. If more people followed these "rules" we would have far fewer headlines in the paper.

Rob Carmichael

>>As a member of the general public I must say this. I have defended the privelage(not right)of owning and caring for venomous animals. This is a stance I can no longer take. The amount of unqualified people keeping venomous has soared in the last 5 years. Regardless of the reasons for this it cannot be ignored any longer. The hobby itself has failed to find a solution, so the government is now doing what they must. Professional keepers lives ARE being put in jeopardy! I dont want to see a zoo keeper killed because Joe Schmoe used up their African polyvalent the week before because he was to irresponsible to purchase his own. Believe me, I know exotic av's are expensive but its not as expensive as costing someone else their life. If I lose the privelage to own and care for venomous animals then so be it. The good of society should always outweigh the good of the individual. I truly hope it doesnt come to this but I dont see any other solutions being presented by the public. At least I will still be able to see them in the field and in zoological parks. Take care and be safe.
>>
>> Tom Eason
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

Are you saying you never kept a venomous species without your own AV stock? All you guys complaining about this have been guilty of it at one time or another.

The whole venomous scene sux, filled with hypocrites!!!!

The more people keeping hots will result in more accidents, and that alone will cause the same effects nomatter if we keep our own AV stock or not.

What is a professional? Somebody who knows what they are talking about or somebody who has less accidents under their belt? Careful what you say.
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Chad Bachman

Chad, I sense a bit of animosity in your response; not surprising. To answer your questions:

1) I keep the appropriate A/V for those animals that are in our permanent collection; that is something I take very seriously. Now, there have been occasions where I have had to assist in a confiscation involving a species of venomous snake in which we do not carry that particular A/V. HOWEVER, this does not make me a hypocrite because this is part of my PROFESSION. When this situation arises, I make IMMEDIATE contacts with those facilities who do keep it and make sure I have access to it should we need it during the short time that animal is with us. We also have some specific protocols (lockdowns) in such circumstances.

2) Although keeping A/V does not necessarily mean that fewer people will get bit, to some degree, I feel it does and here's why. ONLY those who have the proper resources and dedication and commitment (and PROFESSIONALISM) are going to be willing to fork out a substantial amount of money to keep their A/V supplies. I don't see the average yahoo hot herp owner going to such measures. This is serious stuff and most venomous owners lack the proper respect and caution that these animals deserve.

3) What is a professional? In my situation, it is someone with the appropriate educational background and current status as a professional herpetologist (that is, I make my living studying and working with herps) accompanied by experience that includes being mentored by someone who is highly competent and accomplished in the field. Most folks don't have such a privelege which I understand; I am extremely thankful for the opportunities I have and give all of the credit to the good Lord for doing so. The term professional as applied to the private hobbyist are those who keep venomous herps for the right reasons. These are people who are extremely serious about what they do. They take great pride in NOT being bit and go through extreme measures in ensuring that this will never happen to them. They practice safe handling and management techniques. They keep their OWN supply of A/V. They have the proper facilities with all safetly concerns taken care of. Professionalism is the way that we project ourselves; it is our image. Many folks in the herp hobby/business do NOT project themselves in a professional manner (by the way they look, talk, communicate, etc.) and that has hurt us just as much as the highly publicized bite cases we hear about. It is really the approach that they take that goes far beyond it being just a hobby. It is VERY easy to pick out a "professional" from an amateur.

You are telling me to the "careful in what I say"? Careful about what? This is my profession and hobby and if everyone was as protective about it as I was, I can guarantee you that we wouldn't have the problems we have today. The end is coming for private individuals to own venomous herps; I am just thankful that I am "professional" who can continue to do what he enjoys.

Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center
Lake Forest, IL

>>Are you saying you never kept a venomous species without your own AV stock? All you guys complaining about this have been guilty of it at one time or another.
>>
>>The whole venomous scene sux, filled with hypocrites!!!!
>>
>>The more people keeping hots will result in more accidents, and that alone will cause the same effects nomatter if we keep our own AV stock or not.
>>
>>What is a professional? Somebody who knows what they are talking about or somebody who has less accidents under their belt? Careful what you say.
>>-----
>>Chad Bachman
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

n/m.

Instead of banning totally. Keepers from areas of the state need to step up and volunteer time for a permit system so that the right keepers get the permits. Since the state can't fund. How did Flordia. If the state wants individuals to carry antivenom and you can't aford it maybe you souldn't have that hot snake. I would be on board of the venom bank idea, individuals keeping anitvenom, or a permit system. I only keep North American hots so if I haded to I keep antivenom. Also were would individuals get antivenom and how long is antivenom good for. Ronnie

Chad:

Of course we all keep animals from time to time with out the correct stock of A/V. If I see and animal at Hamburg, as you know some you only see rarely. I will snatch it up without hesitation. Right now, my SAVP stock is out of date and have not reordered because of the NEAVB is happening. I will correct my personal A/V stock issues and will remove the whole point of your post.

How can someone I very much respect for their knowledge of snakes be such a jerk on other issues? If the venomous community causes you irration...avoid it altogether and everyone will feel better.

Cheers!

Al
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Take nothing but pictures, leave nothing but footprints.

Herps are in my blood (since 4 years of age). I just find all this banning/bashing keeeping venomous very irritating and therefore react in a manner I would not normally act. I have always been (a few years ago) more than happy to help, but it never got "us" as a venomous community anywhere. I am not giving up on venomous herps, but rather the people who purchase them to be cool (I figure my negative posts will deter some people from purchasing venomous herps, wich can't be a bad thing).

It's just sad that here in PA I can keep what I want, but for how long? I have dedicated my life to these potentially dangerous animals (even costing me a family life and 2 potentially fatal hospital visits) since I was 15 years of age. I am a hardcore keeper, even living in a garage (unheated) for a year just to be able to work with my elapids on a daily basis (the snakes part was heated of course LOL). I just can't find anything to be positive with in this field of interest anymore (except for the few beautiful animals I am still working with).

All this crap is too much for me to take in stride, I just don't know where else there is to go with it all. I speak my mind, and alot of people don't like that, but thats just me!!

Permit systems is what we need, but most states don't want to even think about it (at least a few years ago).
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Chad Bachman

Hi Chad..

Yeah there is too much bull crap around these circles. I'm getting tired of it too...

I hope we can steer lawmakers into a permit system here in the not to distant future.

Not too many of us around that speak what we think and stand by what we say. Too much PC around but don't get me started.

Respectfully yours,

Al Coritz
AKA "Diamond Butt Al"
www.neavb.org

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The more people I meet...the better I like my venomous snakes.

It really depends on the antivenin...they range from $30 vial to over $1500 a vial (SA poly to Commonwealth).

I can tell you between 2004 & 2005 I spent approx $17,000.00 in antivenin purchases. Granted this is the most I have ever spent in any 2 year period.

-Ruston

Hi:

Wow! Quite a bill? If I may ask? Who are you and was this purchase for a private collection or an institution?

If you prefer you can email me directly if you don't want it to be public info.

Cheers!

Al
coritz@neavb.org
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The more people I meet...the better I like my venomous snakes.

I don't mind posting my info. It was for the Dallas Zoo. Normally we spend anywhere from 5-$7,000.00 per year on such purchases but call it bad luck, timing, and other events we spent allot over 2 years (not to mention the use of an over priced middle man for one purchase).

Ruston Hartdegen
Curator of Herpetology
Dallas Zoo

Ruston:

Thanks for the info. Nice to meet you. I'm one of the organizers of an Antivenom bank in the North Eastern US. The Bank will have more than one purpose but the one that affects Zoo Herp Staff is the use of A/V for bites that occur in the private sector. If for some reason one of our members need serum and gets it from a Zoo we will replace the Zoos stock required so budgets are not busted or a keeper is a risk. Our bank will also be added to the AZA Antivenom list and be available to AZA institutions as required. Once established here we will expand bank & membership to areas outside of the Northeast. Actually Texas is another State we are considering.

Have a look at our website for more details.

Take care,

Al Coritz
www.neavb.org

0.1 B. caudalis

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The more people I meet...the better I like my venomous snakes.

I recognize that quote.....

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Tom
TCJ Herps
"The more people I meet, the more I like my snakes"

Seldom do I see a more perfect quote than yours Tom :-D Since I did not see a copyright symbol next to it Thought I could use it...

Cheers!!

Al
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The more people I meet...the better I like my venomous snakes.

It is comments like what you just made that have the most detrimental effects to the herp community. When people in our own community give up that is when the decline occurs. Being in the community you should never make comments that say it is time for the government to start banning. Were you ever on the front lines proposing permit systems be put in place. If you have never done any work for the hobby than you are one of those 80% that Al is talking about that would rather sit on you butt than do anything to protect the country from such bans. This "privelege" as you call it needs to be protected by us. People in the states need to start helping their legislatures enact the permit systems that Al is talking about. Stop speaking negatively about the Venomous community that you say you are a part of and work with the people out there that have already established their permit systems. These people will most likely be willing to offer their strategies to stop further bans. Complaining gets nothing and that is exactly what your comment was. Sorry if this is seen as nagging, but I don't like when our own people in the hobby speak poorly.
Tom, if you don't like how people are handling things than help those like Al who are already trying to stop the spread of the ban.

Thanks
Jon

Hey Al, just the fact that you were "sweating bullets" shows you're on the ball and give these guys the respect they need. I wonder if that Ohio man was sweating anything?

Ironically, I was yelled at in a previous post about haphazardly guessing that the Ohio guy was changing the water dish, and now I here that is exactly what he was doing. Goes to figure eh?

Yeah...go figure...this was his SECOND bite...

Al
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The more people I meet...the better I like my venomous snakes.

I offered my services for the state of Virginia to get contacts numbers and all that earlier down in this forum, but never heard from you.
Lemme know if I can help, and if living in southeast Virginia puts me too far out of reach for your program.
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Tom
TCJ Herps
"The more people I meet, the more I like my snakes"

Tom:

Sorry..I do remember things are nuts at the moment. Please send me an email offline.

coritz@neavb.org
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Take nothing but pictures, leave nothing but footprints.

.

my experience here in WA is that 2-3% is more likely. I think that the curtain is closing on keeping hots because of this apathy. Even with a few deaths a year, we could keep the hobby alive if everyone involved spoke up. As a society we allow for all sorts of foolish behavior as long as the participants are organized. We dont do enough... so we'll lose.

Good luck

Doug T
Doug Taylor Reptiles

With all due respect to Al, whom I do not know, the states banning or not banning anything is going to have little effect on who keeps what and how many people get bitten every year. For every person that hangs out on this forum and posts about the cool cobra, puff adder, or whatever they picked up at the local venomous expo last week, there are 10X as many people who never heard of kingsnake.com and catch their own local stuff and do their own thing, regardless of you, I, or the government.

Lecturing your fellow keepers about how much we're all going to be sorry when it's all said and done, citing the handful of jackasses who get bitten each year as just cause to do this, leaves a wierd taste in my mouth.

Does anybody really know the facts? That would be a good place to start. How many people actually keep hot stuff? How many bites are there a year? And are they illigitimate bites or from accidental encounters? Before the lecturing and sanctimonious posturing starts, lets know what the facts actually are since speculation doesn't do anybody any good.

I spent the better part of six years running the Northern California Herpetological Society and made the same observation as you, Al: Most people don't give a crap. However, instead of complaining about and trying to scare the masses into jumping on board with me, I spent my time trying to find new and creative way to focus energy. Sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't but the bottom line is that who wants to join any cause that's trying to guilt-trip them into it?

"Before the lecturing and sanctimonious posturing starts, lets know what the facts actually are since speculation doesn't do anybody any good"

and then

"For every person that hangs out on this forum and posts about the cool cobra, puff adder, or whatever they picked up at the local venomous expo last week, there are 10X as many people who never heard of kingsnake.com and catch their own local stuff and do their own thing, regardless of you, I, or the government."

10 times ?? Factual statement?
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Tom
TCJ Herps
"The more people I meet, the more I like my snakes"

Hi Eric:

Beautiful Polystictus picture.

Points well taken. I just got a bit tired of people [bleep]ing about the problem and no action is taken. I have my hands full with the formation of the neavb and can't take any lead in the bigger picture right now. I thought someone would "Take the Ball" and run with it. I am not surprised at the lack of response.

Cheers!

Al
neavb.org
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The more people I meet...the better I like my venomous snakes.