Reptile & Amphibian Forums

wow, it has been a while since i have looked over the this forum (last time was the hoax on injecting hormones). It took me a while to read through all the dog food entries. I see there are a lot of purists here in the forum. I would just like to add that monitors are opportunistic feeders. Perhaps 100's of years ago, monitors never ate dog food but having traveled around filming many species in the wild, i have to say that i have no problem feeding my monitors dog food. They do not eat it because they are hungry, they simply eat it because it is food and that is what a monitor does best, eat! No, i do not feed only dog food, they get quail & chicken eggs (depending on the size of the monitor), earthworms, raw lean beef, all kinds of fresh uncooked fish, large snails/escargo, chicks and finches, mice and rats, crickets and mealworms for baby monitors, freshwater eels, and yes canned dog food. There are other things that i feed also but that is just off the top of my head. I feel that you cannot have too much variety and dog food is just variety. "In the wild" is so misleading. I cannot speak for all Varanus species but for those indo species that i have personnaly seen in the "wild", I have to tell you, wild aint so wild any more. Whenever I need to catch a monitor to film I would go to the spot the villagers dump their garbage. This is where you find all the monitors, foraging through the trash eating chicken bones and rice. Fact is monitors are not like say a 3 toed sloth who only produce enzymes to aid in digesting specific leaves from specific trees from a specific location. Monitors will digest most anything you offer them and if you provide a very limited diet then there is a possibility of them having a vitamin or mineral deficincy. Also for those people who feed mice and rats and refuse to feed dog food, I wonder what the mice and rats are fed? If you buy them frozen chances are they are either fed lab chow or DOG FOOD. In this case lab chow is made for rats not monitors and we all know that dog food is made for dogs (according to the previous posts). Of course I guess if you keep and breed your own mice and rats and are deathly against a monitor eating dog food, then instead of feeding your mice dog food (because we all know that you are what you eat) that you can just feed your mice monitor food such as crickets prior to feeding the mouse to your monitor, but isn't that rather redundant. Of course my mice get even more variety than my monitors prior to being fed including monkey chow, tables scraps and yes, dog food too. It is not like we all keep V. komodoensis but when I visited Komodo Island the big females that hung around the camp were often found in the dump which was located right next to a large nesting site. Hmmm. My only point to all this mumble is to the person who originally asked about feeding dog food, my word to you is, if it feels right then do it but do not get hung up on protien this and Vitamin B that. My opinion is IF you feed dog food then why limit it to any one brand. Variety is the spice of life, why should monitors be any different. The only problem I have is that I like to feed so much that I have to be careful of obesity (not me, the monitors, well.. ok, me too). I am sure i will take a pounding for this but thats ok, go ahead and bring it on.

We have several generations of this species, in fact, this male is third generation. (real fact)

We have produced some of the prettyist babies around. (again real fact)

The picture clearly shows the male albig feeding on this special diet.

Ok about dogfood, the person below and you, are clearly allowed to feed your monitors anything you want. No problem. What is so darn funny is, he asked a question, and recieved many answers. In all reality, that is that, he and you, can then choose what course to take, or not. But to argue the answers to the question you asked is well, all sorts of not very flattering names. All having a base meaning of the person not being all that smart.

The reality of this exercise is, the person below, wants to feed dogfood because he cannot figure out how to keep crickets alive. Hmmmmmmmmmm. The first order of the day is simple, learn to keep crickets alive. Its done everyday by tens of thousands of us. Its easy and commonplace.(there is even a forum for such a thing) But indeed we all have to learn how to do it. In fact, learning to keep monitors, entails learning lots of stuff other then the cage conditions and diet of the monitor.

In fact, if crickets are a problem, then feed roaches and superworms, etc. There are many more options that are much better then dogfood(we are talking ackie here) Not a KD or salvator. One stinking ackie, its not like you need hundreds of pounds of food, hahahahahahahahahahahahaha. Compared to you fellas, I must be really really smart, I actually know how to keep and breed crickets and lord knows I cannot be smart, so smart are you?

Good thing I am not the king, cause if I was, I would not let you fellas keep monitors. There would be some simple requirements first, and one would be, the ability to keep a supply of live food. You know, if you cannot keep a cricket alive(muy simple) what makes you think your ready for a monitor???????enjoy

Why do you give your monitor diet coke? Have you tried R&R cream soda? I am sure he will love it.

Well, the main reason we use dirt is so he can write me messages in the dirt with his tail. He said, I want diet coke, period. So, whats a boy to do? FR

Heeeeheeee that was good.

i love you FR
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1.0 Savannah Monitor - Artimus
2.0 Emerald Swift - Jesus, unnamed
1.0 Baby veiled Cham - Sir August De Winter 1-20-05 RIP
1.0 Green Iguana - King Arthur
1.0 Rose-hair tarantula - Bill
1.0 Basilisk - Adam
0.1 Water Dragon - Lady

so you call me stupid heh FR? There are a lot of people on this site that think fr is some sort of demigod. Fact is he is not the only person who knows how to produce quality monitors. There are a lot of people out there who are just as knowledgeable than he, fact is they are not stuck on themselves and seek public recognition in order to prove themselves. You guys keep on thinking that he is so great. He obviously thinks he is because everyone keeps telling him so. Fact is just because you do not agree with him does not make you wrong. I think he need an attitude adjustment.

first, this little world of monitors is not all that meaningful. I get more satisfaction picking my granddaugther up at school, which I get to do tomorrow.

Second, if the shoe fits, then you get to wear it. About being right or wrong. Thats not the point, as we as always wrong. What can be right is the results and they are indeed temporary.

So I offer results of years of hard work and being wrong a lot and you whine like a little baby cause I use real hardcase results. Frankly, thats not my problem, and you need to grow up and take it like a man. The truth here on this forum is, you do not have do listen to what you read, or do what you read. This place is to offer points and counter points. And indeed that is not about right or wrong. The right or wrong is always the results of our actions. What we believe or think is only, what we think and believe and that is always up to debate.

I do not care if your a kid or a PHD, here you are the same, your arguements better have results, because your going to have to argue against results. Do you understand that, its results that count, I do not hold my own thoughts as solid or right or wrong, they must prove to be right and to prove to be right, they must be applied to the monitors, not to you.

Also I am so glad your here, as your about the only person who has worse grammer and spelling. Thanks FR

By the way, your followup is to someone else, not to me, I hope they are not offended.

Second, if the shoe fits, then you get to wear it. About being right or wrong. Thats not the point, as we as always wrong. What can be right is the results and they are indeed temporary.

I HAVE NO CLUE AS TO WHAT YOU ARE REFERRING TO. WHAT SHOE? DO YOU JUST LIKE TO HEAR YOURSELF TALK OR DO YOU HAVE SOMETHING MEANINGFUL TO SAY. EVERYONE KNOWS YOUR ACCOMPLISHMENT BECAUSE YOU MAKE SURE THEY KNOW. IF YOU WANT TO TOOT YOUR OWN HORN THEN DO SO BUT DO NOT ASSUME THAT YOU HAVE ACCOMPLISHED SOMETHING ABOVE AND BEYOND OR BEFORE ANYONE ELSE. IT MAY JUST BE THEY ARE A BIT MORE HUMBLE THAN YOU.

So I offer results of years of hard work and being wrong a lot and you whine like a little baby cause I use real hardcase results.
wHO THE HELL IS WHINING. I MADE A STATEMENT AND YOU INSULTED ME BY CALLING ME STUPID. SHOULD I NOT BE OFFENDED. YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHO I AM OR MY ACCOMPLISHMENT. IF YOU DID YOU WOULD NOT BE SO DAMN COCKY.
Frankly, thats not my problem, and you need to grow up and take it like a man.
TAKE WHAT LIKE A MAN, THE FACT THAT YOU ARE ARROGANT AND LOOK DOWN YOUR NOSE AT EVERYBODY? IF YOU WOULD VISIT THE OTHER FORUMS YOU WOULD SEE THAT THERE ARE OTHERS WHO HAVE BEEN IN THIS "BUSINESS" AS LONG AS US WHO ARE ACTUALLY HELPFUL AND POLITE TOWARDS THOSE LESS KNOWLEDGEABLE. TO BE RUDE TO THOSE ASKING QUESTIONS IS NOT THE WAY TO ESTABLISH RAPPORT WITH FELLOW HERPERS. IT SIMPLY PUTS THEM ON THE DEFENSIVE. AND THEN TO HAVE ALL YOUR LITTLE GROUPIES (i LOVE YOU FR) CRACK JOKES AND MAKE FUN OF OTHERS SIMPLY IS AN OUTRAGE. AS AN EXAMPLE, I AM CONSULTANT FOR SEVERAL ZOOS THAT KEEP VENOMOUS REPTILES. ALTHOUGH I DEAL WITH A LOT OF VENOMOUS WHILE FILMING TV SHOWS, I AM BY NO MEANS AN EXPERT. I HAVE GONE TO THE VENOMOUS FORUM IN SEARCH OF ANSWERS AND AM VERY PROUD OF GUYS LIKE DR FRY WHO SHOWS EVEN THE BEGINNERS IN THAT FORUM RESPECT AND COURTESY. PERHAPS YOU SHOULD TAKE A FEW LESSONS FROM GUYS LIKE HIM.
The truth here on this forum is, you do not have do listen to what you read, or do what you read. This place is to offer points and counter points. And indeed that is not about right or wrong. The right or wrong is always the results of our actions. What we believe or think is only, what we think and believe and that is always up to debate.
IS THIS SUPPOSE TO BE SPIRITUAL OR SOMETHING? WHO WAS IT THAT SAID, IT IS BETTER TO REMAIN SILENT AND BE THOUGHT IGNORANT, THAN TO OPEN ONES MOUTH AND REMOVE ALL DOUBT.

I do not care if your a kid or a PHD, here you are the same, your arguements better have results, because your going to have to argue against results.
I HAVE RESULTS AND PLENTY OF THEM BUT YOU WILL NEVER SEE THEM. I WILL NO LONGER VISIT THIS FORUM. I MIGHT MAKE A SUGGESTION TO RENAME THE FORUM FR FORUM.

Do you understand that, its results that count, I do not hold my own thoughts as solid or right or wrong, they must prove to be right and to prove to be right, they must be applied to the monitors, not to you.

Also I am so glad your here, as your about the only person who has worse grammer and spelling. Thanks FR
NICE CRACK, DON'T WORRY, YOU CAN STILL HAVE THE WORSE GRAMMER ON THE FORUM AS YOU WILL NEVER HEAR FROM ME AGAIN.

By the way, your followup is to someone else, not to me, I hope they are not offended.
IF YOU ARE CONCERNED ABOUT SOMEONE NOT BEING OFFENDED THEN PERHAPS YOU MIGHT CONSIDER ACTING A BIT MORE CIVIL TOWARDS NEWCOMERS AND STOP LOOKING DOWN YOUR ALMIGHTY NOSE AT THEM. TRUST ME, YOU ARE NOT ALL THAT.

you said a bunch of poop

FR says this,

You know, I do not give a poop about you or your feelings that is true, but unfortunately, I do care about poor dogfood eating monitors. If my response informs someone, anyone, to not choose to feed dogfood and feed whole food items, then I will accept your silly worries about me being arrogant or whatever.thank you, FR

If a man has no face he can be anyone, as it takes a face to be a man.

Are you a man?????

If you have experience and lots of it, then why not share it? What have you done with the dog or cat food diet that makes it so good for monitors?

While I rarely post in here and in fact I don't even own a monitor but have kept a few over the years (still consider myself a novice though--I'm more of a snake person. I frequently read posts in this forum and this just cracks me up. Here you have and individual, FR who dishes out some of the best advice (which you can either take it or leave it...there are no requirements) I've seen on any of these forums and then you have some new person who can't take his logical advice but rather takes it as disrespect...

I have some advice for this new person, dont' take anything anyone says on here personally...many of these people have years and years of experience and know what works for them. And try not to let your poor little feelings get hurt in a freakin' forum about monitor lizards!!!

now, I can go about my day working since I have been thoroughly entertained by reading all of those previous posts!!!

thanks guys!!!

Nydon do you know FR other then from this forum or from peoples bad mouthing him? I ask because many peoples (big names) I know have been telling me all bad about him for years without any justifications, I hade to cut the bridges with many of these nice peoples, its unhealthy to nourish such negative feeling without valid reasons.
I use to think much like you about FR’s rudeness, however I realised that his so called victim’s where in fact the aggressor’s (again like you) because lets be honest your post are in every way as rude, how can a man remain civil year after years when confronted this way. We have seen results from dog food over and over, its not the best food to advise mostly because peoples are lazy and will make it a staple diet, It’s not hard to understand! FR is still very helpful with whoever wants to learn, also I have fight on every forums against him and said many things I shouldn’t have said, look at how this man is treating me regardless, This really annihilate your rudeness, ego, concept as it takes kindness and humility for such conduct.

ps. Cal me nosy but id like to know who you are and what TV show! Its funny how peoples wish to stay anonymous when attacking FR haha (do you really think a reputation can be lost on the net?)

jobi, ya, i said i was not going to visit the forum again but i was curious as to what idiotic response FR would give. He did not let me down. His reply does not even deserve a response. Yours however did because you asked a question in a civil manner and i appreciate that. I would just ask you to look back at my original post. How can you say I attacked FR. I did not mention him one single time. I made some statements, asked what those people who are against dog food feed to their rodents and posted a picture of a hatching dumeril. Nothing negative there. My reply from FR was that I am less than smart and if he were king i would not be allowed to own monitors because i do not know how to raise crickets. Oh ya, and he has the prettiest monitors - fact. Anyone for an order of humility? Who is attacking who here. I am not hiding my identity, he never bothered asking, he just came out swinging. I sell thousands of crickets a day. I do not advertise, i just sell to my regular customers my surplus crickets and mice that i am required to breed to feed my 500 animals that i personnaly feed each and every day of the year (except when i am out of country filming). If you really go back and look at this guys attitude toward others in the hobby and then ask yourself, what does he really do to help promote the hobby, you will probably reach the same conclusion as i did. I had no prejudices, never met the guy, never heard anything negative about him. I can simply tell you what i know of him from this forum and i am not impressed. He attacked me without provocation. He attacked the person asking the original question. He attacks anyone who does not agree with him and frankly, he does nothing positive for the hobby that i can see. You do not need to be a rocket scientist to keep and breed reptiles. You only need some common sense and tlc. Why then others within the hobby would allow someone to act the way he does toward a person who was asking for help is beyond me. This person was truly wanting help and before you knew it FR and his croonies were acting like a schoolhouse gang beating up on the short overweight guy. If you are truly a leader worthy of emulation, you simply tell the person how to care for the crickets properly and advise them that in HIS opinion he would not recommend feeding dog food. Then when someone else tells the person they feel differently, let the person who asked the question make up his/her own mind based on the responses. But FR feels a need to butt in and attack the person with a different opinion than his. I have been around for a long time and can defend myself and my positions if someone wants to discuss them intelligently without being an idiot but if we want to promote the hobby then people need to be more constructive and helpful and stop with the holier than thou attitudes.

If you look down a few posts, you'll see the guy got answers about his crickets dieing. He then asked about dog food we all gave opinions. He then defended using it, if he can defend using it we can certainly defend being against it.

Do you not know how to debate?? Or do you only like one sided debates that do not question the speaker??

Again you post without a name, haha even after you say "I am not hiding my identity". Hmmmm so you are just choosing to not mention it then? haha

Some of us have been around on this forum for a very long time. I do not recall seeing you here until your post of What species?? If you stick around here long enough you will see why lots of us giving advice do it in the manner we do. As long as we stick within the guidlines of the T.O.S. then it seems we are allowed no matter what you think we should be doing.

Nydon you are wrong! You don’t have to agree, don’t need see eye to eye or kiss his ….
However when you offer your expertise it will be commented, sometimes your information’s will be significant other times not, those it really matters? Absolutely not!
Take it easy stranger

You say i am wrong? About what? that i did not attack this guy in my original post? That he did not call me stupid or assume wrongly that i do not know how to keep crickets and if he had the power he would not allow me to keep monitors?. That he is not rude and arrogant? Fact is, I appreciated your post to me and thought it worthy of answering. I had planned on emailing you and introduce myself but as it was 4 a.m. in my part of the world when i posted a reply, i figured i would email you in the morning. That was before you flip flopped on me. As far as the post before you, i did not know that it was a requirement to post your resume prior to using this forum. I didn't happen to see yours. Yes i know how to debate. Look at his reply and then ask him if he knows how to debate. The fact that someone answered his question about how to keep crickets does not negate the response of the individual in question. it was not his response. i never did find out what people feed their rodents or gut load their insects with. All i got was a bunch of slanderous remarks. If the "old timers" think that is ok and want to defend this guy to the end then that is fine. They say love is blind and i see here it is true. Maybe he will give you one of his "prettiest monitors" as several of you guys have earned one "the hard way".

Hey id be delighted you email me! Jobi64@hotmail.com
All I am saying is you are wrong about FR, regardless of how he seems to you (most peoples) he is a good man. Words on forums should not stop you from sharing and enjoying, I feel many before you have left for the wrong reasons. Trust me I am not kissing up to him and don’t need any monitors from him, even free!
However after all the nonsense iv herd from peoples that don’t know him, I cant support such prejudice anymore. Pleas keep your doors open, theirs nothing to gain from being solo.

I own some land in Canada and grow my own crops corn, Soya, oat, lusern, alfalfa, wheat, with pre-mix formula to feed my rodents, summer time I also feed lots of clover, dandelions with flowers, Purina rat chow. Caution: Soya is protein rich and cause mammary cyst in rats.
Don’t jump the gun on any of us, we aren’t worth it!

I am not defending anyone, I do defend my opinion thats about it.

Please show me where I said FR is right or even mentioned his name to defend him?? I am pretty sure he can defend himself, and does not need me talking for him.

I am not pestering you cause of who you are, I just do not agree with you. That is allowed right? If I don't agree with FR guess what, I will let him know it and have in the past.

I never said it is required for you to post your name or resume. But you did say "I am not hiding my identity". I just found it funny after saying that you never mentioned your name. I believe jobi asked you. On the internet you are just text. It is very easy to be whoever you wish to be. This is the main reason you recieve skepticism on this forum.

BTW, I have seen Franks monitors and they are very nice, but I do not need him to give me any. I have plenty of my own that are just as nice IMO.

here is what I said, its an exact copy;
Ok about dogfood, the person below and you, are clearly allowed to feed your monitors anything you want. No problem. What is so darn funny is, he asked a question, and recieved many answers. In all reality, that is that, he and you, can then choose what course to take, or not. But to argue the answers to the question you asked is well, all sorts of not very flattering names. All having a base meaning of the person not being all that smart. Is this where you think i called you stupid???

The reality of this exercise is, the person below, Please notice, its about the person below, not you wants to feed dogfood because he cannot figure out how to keep crickets alive. Hmmmmmmmmmm. The first order of the day is simple, learn to keep crickets alive. Its done everyday by tens of thousands of us. Its easy and commonplace.(there is even a forum for such a thing) But indeed we all have to learn how to do it. In fact, learning to keep monitors, entails learning lots of stuff other then the cage conditions and diet of the monitor.

Good thing I am not the king, cause if I was,notice I said, good thing i am not king, that means, I do not have any power over you what so ever I would not let you fellas keep monitors. There would be some simple requirements first, and one would be, the ability to keep a supply of live food. You know, if you cannot keep a cricket alive(muy simple) what makes you think your ready for a monitor???????

The last paragraph says, "you fellas" in the context of this thread, that means, fellas who feed dogfood over whole food items. Again, if you think this is calling you stupid, then may want to reread this without a chip on your shoulder or whatever is your problem.

I will suggest this, if you want to impress me or shut me up so to speak, then prove me wrong. I mean, prove me wrong, not say all this and that meaningless stuff. Show me the results and I will be the first to congratulate you. Thanks FR

This is getting funnier every day...

FR, I would just like to respond to a remark you made 2 days ago,

"Back to crickets, we have tested them both with and without suppliments. Without suppliments monitors did very well and grew without problem, until placed in large groups. then we saw problems that were fixed with the addition of vitamins"

Are you serious???
I don't care if you bred 10.000 monitors or not, if you think any lizard will grow up just fine on unsupplemented crickets you really don't get it. I have already seen dozens and dozens of nearly dead patients fed a diet like that, and I haven't even started my own practice yet. This kind of advise is what kills thousands of lizards each year.
The reason they get in trouble if you place them in large groups is probably because they are more active and nervous and use treir muscles more (calcium!!) If you had kept those same lizards on their own they would have died in about 6 months.
THAT's why I advise to add catfood to the diet,to balance out those lovely crickets.
I have already met so many breeders like you,and it doesn't matter what they breed: horses,parrots,dogs,cats,fish or reptiles. Talking to(most of) them is like running into a brick wall.
You're all stuck in a thinking pattern without really understanding the basics of nutrition.

better watch it jasper2 your fixin to get blasted by the monitor god himself. hehe. I read your entry about cat food and it does provide some logic. although i have no major problems feeding dog food, i will try the cat food as well. One reason i have used the dog food in the past is that most of my monitors relish it but are hesitant to eat some of the other foods that i try to vary their diet with. each individual monitor has its preference for different foods. Babies from the same clutch will show different preferences. One may refuse to eat eggs or snail but his litter mates will gobble them up. in this case i will mix the egg or whatever with the dog food which is readily eaten. if they have the same zeal for cat food then it would work just as good as dog food or according to you even better. Do you by any chance live in Texas. If so I can introduce you to some great reptile vets there that i use to work with on a herp rescue program back in the 80's.

I don't live in Texas, in fact I don't even live in the States but in The Netherlands...
But thanks for the offer.

i forgot to add it to my previous post but i agree with you about those "brick wall" kind of people and i will no longer bother to beat my head against that wall but i did want to clarify to everyone that i do not feed dog food OVER whole food items as was wrongly stated by .......... I feed it along with many many other things as a SUPPLEMENT to whole food items. There is a BIG difference that obviously guys like jasper2 has a real understanding of but some people just don't get. Never did i say not to feed mice or crickets but if i ate steak every day for every meal, i would good a little bored not to mention a vitamin and supplement deficiency.

You do not have any results to match or compare with mine. If you were a man, you would not take this as something against you personally, but something to compare experiences with and in the process help others with their monitors. If you dissagree with me, then show me your results, if you don't, how on earth am I to learn? I have already seen this, your a bad bad man FR. hahahahahahahahahaha

But you are not a man, you think you can come and attack me. Well guess what, you can. But don't expect me to lay down and not put up a fight. All I will ask is, put up or shut up. Try showing results or experiences that compare to mine or show different approaches that work. See if you showed other approaches that work, you sure would put me in my place and help others with their monitors.

The reason I often think people like you may be "not so very smart" is, You somehow think I am only aware of my methods and they are the only successful ones. That is actually funny and not smart of you. When I am asked a question or respond to someones question, I give my experience and what I have done, to help that person make a decision. If you or that person wants me to give some others successful keepers method or experience, should should really ask that other keeper. I really think that only makes sense. If you asked that keeper and several others, you would then have many choices to make a educated decision. But all and all, its always the person asking the questions responsibility to make the right decision.

Oh, I see your having a hard time staying away, I hope you stick to your other decisions better then you stuck to the decision to stay away, hahahahahahahahahaha.

Truthfully, this forum would welcome you, but please try being honest and share your montior experience. It makes it hard on you when you burst in the door and try to position yourself by attacking people and then doing nothing but whining about people. Its not hard to impress people on this forum, all you need is a healthy monitor, thats impressive. So I ask, try keeping it about monitors. You do know that, all here already know I am arrogant and rude, they are use to it. You see, this forum is just like all other groups of people, there are all kinds, but thats not the point, its suppose to be about monitors. We're suppose to talk about the monitors. Thanks FR

Heres the point.

I did not say what I think or theory, I said the results of what happened, I tested it. I also did not recoment feeding unsupplimented crickets as a sole diet. I tested unsuppliment crickets on many many monitors and under unstressful conditions, they grew and achieved life events. I also stated, once placed in large groups, stressful conditions, They had problems. This is not what I would think, or theory, or what I wanted, Its the result of a test.

You clearly do not understand what results of tests are. They do not mean you should automatically do it. Or recomend it, they simply provide data. Something to help you make decisions. Remember its your dang decision, I already made mine and are very happy with the results.

In reality, while your wondering and thinking and asking this and that, we have in the past and are now raising generation and generation of odatraid monitors on crickets. They grow up to be very healthy and productive monitors, they grow very fast and have no problems.

So understanding the above, why do you think you have to add(of all things) canned food? Like a said many times already, there are many many other much better choices.

You really need to understand this, YOU asked a question, I gave my experience and opinion, after that, you can and should do whatever you want. If you decide to feed catfood and your monitors liver blows up, its not my problem. I do feel sorry for the monitor. And I would wish someone feed you dogfood for extended periods. IF me wishing that is rude and arrogant, then so be it. Good luck and happy decision making, FR

Actually, that's only proof that your diet is good. But showing the high quality of your monitors doesn't prove that you can't get equally healthy monitors by using other foods.

However, I think it would be good to show examples of monitors that were fed a varied diet including dog food, and how that diet resulted in poor health. Provided you have a control group for comparison, that could definitely prove that dog food shouldn't be fed to monitors.

Or the results of a diet with peoplefood mixed with dogfood/catfood on monitors with occaisional rodents from a reptile rescue thats owned by a good friend, and through a wildlife rehabilitation which is given 6-9 savannah monitors and between 3-6 niles by owners not wanting them anymore or releasing them and they are caught. They recieve these numbers every year, the last few years those numbers have gone up.
The unwanted savannahs etc that are fed dog or cat food as a basis show the results you ask for, although when you see them in person you would not want to take pictures of them, let alone want to claim responsibility for it. These animals are many times on the edge of death when they arrive, some are grossly obese, and many suffer from, or are suffering from liver failure. These animals have been in captivity under their former owners care for anywhere from 6 months to 4 years or so. The animals that survive because they were given up earlier are switched to a rodent, chicken peep, roach diet and are completely unrecognizeable by their former owners in a matter of weeks to months (5000% improvement).
Some of this has to due with other husbandry improvements such as solid top cages, better ambient temps, better basking temps, and better substrate, of course the individuals suffering kidney failure are typically from the bad cage conditions with exceptions of obesity (better temps improve this).
If you saw these animals in person, the sick dieing suffering unwanted monitors you would understand why you wouldnt want to purposefully put the animal through that just to take picture to prove the point. The whole dogfood/catfood diet for monitors is no new idea as a matter of fact people have been trying that for as long as monitors have been kept in captivity, and dogfood/catfood has been available to feed to them. The problem is those who failed from doing so will not lay claim to this or admit that they have done it after they fail.
If feeding it as a basis is this bad, and a supplement is given on occaision to improve ones diet, why would you supplement with something known to be bad that bad, its kind of like 3 steps foward and 1-2 back, see what I mean.

I see what you mean, I'm just not sure that's a valid conclusion.

I mean, drinking too much alcohol will kill you. However, drinking just a little alcohol won't hurt you at all.

Is it the same way with dog food? Exactly how does that work? Does eating a tiny bit of dog food just have a tiny negative impact on the lizard's health? Or is there some kind of "hump", where no damage occurs unless the amount of dog food exceeds some critical amount?

I mean, I'm sure that it is better off to stick with whole foods just to be on the safe side, but I'm still not convinced that small amounts of dog (or cat) food are actually bad.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying anyone should ever feed them dog food, and I don't use it either. I'm just saying that I haven't seen any proof that offering dog food on rare occasions is actually harmful.

But yes, I do understand why there wouldn't be a lot of extensive studies on this. A deliberate study on this could possibly seriously hurt or kill the animals, and there wouldn't even be much to gain from such a study. Any possible benefits from such a study wouldn't justify the potential for harm done to the animals. At best, you might find out that you could save a buck every couple of months by using dog food as a rare treat.

Still, you'd think there has to be SOMEONE who's used dog food as rare "treats" and can say how their monitors are doing. Of course, the obvious problem with that is that a lot damage might not be visible. The animal could look healthy, and still be in poor health. And of course, if the animal does seem to be in poor health, one would still have to determined that it was caused by rare offerings of dog food as opposed to other husbandry conditions.

I guess this is sort of a pointless argument. Rare offerings of dog food might not hurt, but I guess there really is no reason to try it.

Never mind, I guess. Now that I think about it, this probably ISN'T worth arguing over.

I have never said, What I feed is the best. In fact, I am very sensitive about that. I have no idea whats best, I do know that whole food items and in particular, crickets and mice, work very well over many generations. I say that are reliable. Not they are best.That is, they only work. Other people read what I say and somehow add best(in their minds) Why they do that, I have no idea.

The question is, why do people want to choose a food item that is questionable over something thats proven? Why don't they use whats proven then test a little at a time whats not proven?

If your new and do not know whats suitable, why don't you start with something that is reliable and proven????

Why I think some of these people are not so smart has to do with this, Why pick to work on quicksand, when you can stand on something solid. What would you call someone who chooses to stand on quicksand? FR

Why is the immediate attempt to feed our domesticated pets food always dog food? now, i cant immagine its healthy to do either, but wouldnt it be more logical to feed canned cat food? dog food is made of alot of grain type items because this is what evolution and domestication have allowed dogs to do. if anyone watches event he tiniest bits of news, you hear off and on stories of people trying to make vegan cats, and the cats dying. cats can only live on meat-protien based diets. soooo... cat food, at least the decent brand names, is meatprotien, which would be the thousand time more logical choice to feed a meat eating lizard. i havnt had a moniter very long, but i've dealt with reptiles since i was old enough to convince mom that the iguana wouldnt eat the cats (you know, i even got her to let the thing on her head!) and have the common sense to realize that dog food is a poor choice for a carnivore. now, if your feeding an omnivore, without even getting into the arguement of "arnt organic plants and hand raised crix better" arguements, then dogfood would be a slightly more proper choice.
so yeah, summed up, if you insist on dogfood, maybe at least make the switch to catfood? i can understand some of the "its soooo expensive" arguements on feeding mice and rats... but, didnt you investigate the prices before making the purchase? i'm spending about 5 dollars every other day feeding my moniter the mice from my local insanely overpriced pet store, but i dont care to keep/breed them myself.
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1.3 Dogs (max, tasha, kaya, screw)
1.0 Ghost Corn (Ghost Faced Killa)
0.1 Normal Corn (Tigera?)
1.0 Yellow Rat
0.1 Central American Boa Constrictor (Achilla)
0.1 Burmese Python
0.1 Rose Hair Tarantulla (Grumpy)
0.0.1 Usambar Starburts Baboon Tarantula
0.1 White Knee / Zebra Tarantula
2 ferrets (Otis, Milo)
1.2 Emperor Scorpion
0.0.1 Nile Moniter
0.0.1 Tegu
Jack Dempsey Tank...

It's ironic that the new monitor keeper makes the most sense in this thread
Just wanted to add that you may consider looking up a local herp society and/or snake keepers as they often have people selling rodents for more appropriate prices.

i actually bought a big ol bag of frozen at the reptile show today. retired breeders too, not the just-hit-adulthood mice i get at the petstores. im hoping to place a nice large bulk order online for all my rodent eating children, well, except for the adult boa... im about to start breeding rabbits for her, i see no sense in coughing up 5-10 bucks a meal when i can breed my own. plus bunnies could easily turn into a small side income, y'know?
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1.3 Dogs (max, tasha, kaya, screw)
1.0 Ghost Corn (Ghost Faced Killa)
0.1 Normal Corn (Tigera?)
1.0 Yellow Rat
0.1 Central American Boa Constrictor (Achilla)
0.1 Burmese Python
0.1 Rose Hair Tarantulla (Grumpy)
0.0.1 Usambar Starburts Baboon Tarantula
0.1 White Knee / Zebra Tarantula
2 ferrets (Otis, Milo)
1.2 Emperor Scorpion
0.0.1 Nile Moniter
0.0.1 Tegu
Jack Dempsey Tank...

thanks for your input. it is much along the same lines as jasper2 which i already responded to but felt i would answer yours as well. first thing i plan on trying cat food but it may be a bit more difficult as there are not many cats in my part of the world so i am not sure what is available out there. As far as someone feeding cat food because they cannot afford mice is outrages and should never happen but does. But what i am talking about is totally different. I have a seperate building that is used for breeding mice and crickets and i feed hundreds of mice daily. Cost is not the point by any means. If you feed one mouse every other day then i would say my monitors eat more mice than yours (i also feed smaller mice but more of them at different times). What i am talking about is a supplement to the mice and or crickets. By no means should anyone feed anything other than mice or crickets as a staple diet. and IF you only fed one type of food then mice or crickets for younguns would be the obvious and only choice. BUT what i am talking about is SUPPLEMENTS. Just as you dust your crickets or gut load your mice, what is the problem of supplementing your monitors with a wide variety (as wide as possible) including dog or as you suggest, cat food. I also like raw lean beef because i can dip it in calcium and vitamin supplement and it stick real good (for the mice eating monitors) The major problem with lean fresh beef strips is that ANYTHING will stick to it including substrate so you either have to cut it in short strips that won't drag the ground or take your monitor out for feeding IF you house it on a substrate that is "loose" like mulch.

i actually feed about 1 to 2 mice a day - as much as he will eat really, i put a live in for abit, and put it away if he doesnt go for it. i buy 3-5 every time i go to the store, and have a small tank i deemed appropriate to keep mice in overnight. plus, hes a wee little guy yet, ive had him only near a month now. of course, this is also why i am afraid to go to frozen, but i think i have enough snakes that if he doesnt eat it i can find someone else who will.
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1.3 Dogs (max, tasha, kaya, screw)
1.0 Ghost Corn (Ghost Faced Killa)
0.1 Normal Corn (Tigera?)
1.0 Yellow Rat
0.1 Central American Boa Constrictor (Achilla)
0.1 Burmese Python
0.1 Rose Hair Tarantulla (Grumpy)
0.0.1 Usambar Starburts Baboon Tarantula
0.1 White Knee / Zebra Tarantula
2 ferrets (Otis, Milo)
1.2 Emperor Scorpion
0.0.1 Nile Moniter
0.0.1 Tegu
Jack Dempsey Tank...

Wow guys.. I haven't come here in 1 day and i see the longest post i've seen on any fo the kingsnake forums to date. Sorry if i misspell or anything, im really tired. I think we all agree on not feeding dog-food to monitors. As for FR being rude, he's one of the most helpful people on the forum. And i love to hear his opinions, which are strongly backed-up. thanks much FR
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1.0 Savannah Monitor - Artimus
2.0 Emerald Swift - Jesus, unnamed
1.0 Baby veiled Cham - Sir August De Winter 1-20-05 RIP
1.0 Green Iguana - King Arthur
1.0 Rose-hair tarantula - Bill
1.0 Basilisk - Adam
0.1 Water Dragon - Lady