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I've a stupid question. My experience with Ball Pythons is quite limited, especially with Pied hets. Since I've seen several photos of Pied marker traits, but very seldom see photos of Normal bellies...this question may very well be stupider than I thought.

I've noticed (again...in the few animals I've inspected) that het Pieds usually have a black splotch just below the cloacal (pronunciation?). Is this part of the marker trait? Or is this common to Normals as well?

Just Curious,
Chris =/
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"You ever heard of those? They're called parents. We have parents who love us. You don't 'cause you're a little orphan." -- Roy O'Bannon

from all the previous post i've read in the past year. there have been many snake with the black solid stripe along the belly just before the cloaca. some covering about the last third of the body and some even covering the whole body. but the it hasn't been a proven het pied marker do to the fact that there are several normal ball pythons that have it as well. so as far as i know. the best way to tell a het from a normal would be the written paperwork and any other documentation on the genetics from a reputable breeder. hope this helps some.
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Red Raven Reptiles
red-

I've read a lot about the marker traits, and I know about the black lines along the belly. What I'm wondering about is the black splotch below the cloacal. Does this splotch go along with the marker trait? Or is it just a random occurance within Normals as well?

Thanks,
Chris
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"You ever heard of those? They're called parents. We have parents who love us. You don't 'cause you're a little orphan." -- Roy O'Bannon

the blotches you're speaking of are random accurances in almost all normal looking ball pythons. i have several normals that have it. some with a completely clear belly and then a small little blotch just below the cloaca. so i honestly don't think it would be a possible marker for a het. because if it was then i can't wait to see what my collection gives me. but thus far it is not a marker. it would be nice if it was but then what morph will it produce???
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Red Raven Reptiles
red-

Ah! That's what I wanted to know. =) Thanks for the insight.

(Spontaneous Rant: I absolutely HATE having to sign in every time I want to post a freaking message!!! Why can't this website remember me like OTHER websites do???)

Good Things,
Chris =)
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"You ever heard of those? They're called parents. We have parents who love us. You don't 'cause you're a little orphan." -- Roy O'Bannon

Chris, I have had both 100% het pieds and Normal farm hatched that both have the pied markers. NOTE: Not all het pieds have the marker traits, but some people use this to try and pick out Het PIEDS out of POSS het pied clutches.

The below picture is of 2 NORMAL balls and a 100% het PIED. I will post a picture of 2 female 100% het pieds in my NEXT post. Thanks DAVID

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1.0 Pied(04)(RDR)
1.0 Albino(04)(RDR)
0.1 Spider(04)(RDR)
3.2 Pastels(03's)(04's)(ASF,Graziani,Bell lines)
0.1 Yellow belly(unproven)(04)
1.3 Yellow belly(unproven)(02,03,04's)
2.0 100% HET CLOWN(04's)(MHMR)
3.3 100% het albinos(03's)(high contrast bell line)
0.1 poss Het Albino(03's)
2.0 100% het pieds(03's)(Vin Russo,CRE)
0.2 100% het pieds(03's)(04's)(RDR,TWL)
1.2 Poss het pieds(03's)(PETE KAHL)
2.1 Poss het pieds(00's)(01's) hoping to get PIEDS this year(Vin Russo, Pete Kahl)
25 Normal adult females
60 04 females
15 normal mixed 03's
20 Assorted weird ball pythons 04's

Here is a photo of 2 female 100% het pieds. Thanks David

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1.0 Pied(04)(RDR)
1.0 Albino(04)(RDR)
0.1 Spider(04)(RDR)
3.2 Pastels(03's)(04's)(ASF,Graziani,Bell lines)
0.1 Yellow belly(unproven)(04)
1.3 Yellow belly(unproven)(02,03,04's)
2.0 100% HET CLOWN(04's)(MHMR)
3.3 100% het albinos(03's)(high contrast bell line)
0.1 poss Het Albino(03's)
2.0 100% het pieds(03's)(Vin Russo,CRE)
0.2 100% het pieds(03's)(04's)(RDR,TWL)
1.2 Poss het pieds(03's)(PETE KAHL)
2.1 Poss het pieds(00's)(01's) hoping to get PIEDS this year(Vin Russo, Pete Kahl)
25 Normal adult females
60 04 females
15 normal mixed 03's
20 Assorted weird ball pythons 04's

Here is one of my 100% het males belly shot.

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1.0 Pied(04)(RDR)
1.0 Albino(04)(RDR)
0.1 Spider(04)(RDR)
3.2 Pastels(03's)(04's)(ASF,Graziani,Bell lines)
0.1 Yellow belly(unproven)(04)
1.3 Yellow belly(unproven)(02,03,04's)
2.0 100% HET CLOWN(04's)(MHMR)
3.3 100% het albinos(03's)(high contrast bell line)
0.1 poss Het Albino(03's)
2.0 100% het pieds(03's)(Vin Russo,CRE)
0.2 100% het pieds(03's)(04's)(RDR,TWL)
1.2 Poss het pieds(03's)(PETE KAHL)
2.1 Poss het pieds(00's)(01's) hoping to get PIEDS this year(Vin Russo, Pete Kahl)
25 Normal adult females
60 04 females
15 normal mixed 03's
20 Assorted weird ball pythons 04's

here is my farmed normal that gothpython(thanks Red!) noticed has some of those marks on when he visited my collection.

The best way to see what is going on is to breed it and see if you can prove that it is something or not. Though it will take you along time to find the answer but it could be worth it.

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Misty Sprouse Ball Pythons

Hi CJ,

I just purchased an adult het pied male from Pete Kahl and he has the irregular, bold, belly striping. The striping can and does frequently pass halfway or completely through the scales bordering the wide belly scale, contrary to what some on this forum say (all three scales do not have to be clear). Also the snake has a short (3 scale) vertical stripe just past the cloaca on the middle underside of the tail, is this the smudge you are referring too? Pete told me that about 75% of the hets that he has hatched have this marker.

I'll be there are a lot of pied hets out there from Africa that just aren't being bred into hets or pieds. Actually, I'd bet that their are lots of hets of different morphs out there. Without the markers though I guess it's just a crap shoot whether they ever get bred back to other gene carriers. Take care.

Will

Yes! That's exactly the sub-cloacal mark I was talking about. Was Kahl referring to the entire marker trait set when he spoke of the 75%, or just that sub-cloacal splotch specifically? Interesting...

Chris =I
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"You ever heard of those? They're called parents. We have parents who love us. You don't 'cause you're a little orphan." -- Roy O'Bannon

Pete was refering to the belly edge striping. He didn't say anything about the sub-caudal smudge. I've seen many belly shots of het pieds recently and while many have that smudge not all do. Interesting stuff.

Will

I saw another experienced pied breeder indicate that he thought he could pick out 80% of the hets by sight so that jives with your report that Peter Kahl hatches 75% markered hets.

I realize that the quality of the marker varies and not all hold up to the consistent three scale wide white belly standard. However, I do thing the width of the white belly is a good way to separate most of the presumed normal look-alikes from actual pied line markers. For a while people where posting anything that had the slightest bit of black striping even way down on the belly and asking if it was a het pied.

I'd bet the striping on the edge is a much bigger part of the marker that the experts look for than the cross over mark after the vent.

I agree with you. I'd bet that the striping is more indicative of the marker than the sub-caud smudge. I've recently seen many pics of het pieds that had the belly edge striping, but not all had the smudge. Interesting.

Will

Will, I am currently working with several farm hatched babies that have the belly striping just like my 100% het pied, I will probably breed the 2 together or maybe put the het pied with all of the striped belly females, just to see. i will keep you all posted. But I did read in Stefan Broghammer's ball python book where he states that the PIED gene is quite common in Africa. Here is the exact quote from his book " Astonishingly, Pie-bald specimans are regularly collected in the wild: All of them coming from and area near Accra, The capital of Ghana, where the terrain is more mountainous and temperature is cooler than down by the coast. Until recently NO trapper wanted to tell me the exact place." This is what I found quite interesting and if an adult PIE-Bald was killed way back in the day in Africa, My opinion is if they have been around that long, that Africa should be producing a huge amount of hets from that region every season. I would think that some of the striped bellies from the wild will prove to be hets for pied, I know it is a LONGGGGGGG shot but might be worth keeping the females to breed to a PIED down the road. Even if they don't prove out you would still produce 100% het from your male PIED. Thanks DAVID

This is a het pied from Vin russo and 2 NORMAL 03 AFRICA farmed babies from the same batch of babies.

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1.0 Pied(04)(RDR)
1.0 Albino(04)(RDR)
0.1 Spider(04)(RDR)
3.2 Pastels(03's)(04's)(ASF,Graziani,Bell lines)
0.1 Yellow belly(unproven)(04)
1.3 Yellow belly(unproven)(02,03,04's)
2.0 100% HET CLOWN(04's)(MHMR)
3.3 100% het albinos(03's)(high contrast bell line)
0.1 poss Het Albino(03's)
2.0 100% het pieds(03's)(Vin Russo,CRE)
0.2 100% het pieds(03's)(04's)(RDR,TWL)
1.2 Poss het pieds(03's)(PETE KAHL)
2.1 Poss het pieds(00's)(01's) hoping to get PIEDS this year(Vin Russo, Pete Kahl)
25 Normal adult females
60 04 females
15 normal mixed 03's
20 Assorted weird ball pythons 04's

If het pieds where distributed randomly in a wild population at 1 in 200 it would result in 1 in 40,000 het X het breeding and 1 in 160,000 pieds. Kind of makes you think that there might be a lot of het pieds in the 150,000 balls they export from Africa each year (at 1 in 200 about 750 a year). If 80% of them have markers that’s still 600 markers imported a year.

This girl has the "smudge" but she isn't het pied (that i know of).

I do however hope her color proves to be genetic.

Here is an older picture of the male in the pics above.
(50% het Caramel)

Here is his brother.(Who actually bred to the above female this year).

...yeah...i r bored
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Charles Glaspie