Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi,

For the past week, I've been working on setting up a cage for a young BRB I'm hoping to buy this Saturday. It is a modified 29 gallon aquarium - by modified, it has a hard glass top, and three of the sides are painted black to help the snake feel secure.

I'm having a lot of trouble with the temperatures in the cage. I just can't seem to establish a proper heating gradient. The tank's dimensions are 30" long, 12" wide, and 18" high.

On the left side of the tank, I have an 11" x 11" Ultratherm UTH (running on a thermostat), coupled with a 40watt daylight bulb. On the right side, I have a night/moonlight bulb (which I haven't used, thanks to the temperature problems).

Even with all my equipment on the left side of the tank, I'm still getting a consistent 76 degrees across the entire cage! The room is only 73 degrees. I've been working on the cage all week, and just can't seem to find a good solution. I'd use a lower wattage bulb, but even as it is now, the hot side is having trouble reaching the 80 degrees I would like to see.

The water bowl is on the hot side of the tank, and there are hides all along the back of the tank from hot to cool. The substrate is Bed-a-Beast, about half an inch thick, at most.

The humidity is consistently above 70%, usually reaching about 76-78%. Any suggestions on what I might try doing? The cage's top is completely covered at the moment - would drilling a few vents on the cool side help to get things right?
-----
::i believe in joy > http://www.winds.org/nekomi/hope.html

::my homepage > http://www.winds.org/nekomi

My Growing Zoo (Herps coming soon!):

1.0 Husband (Byron) ^_^
0.1 black cat (Shade)
1.2 Cockatoo cichlids (A. cacatuoides yellow-gold)
1.1 WC Cockatoo cichlids (A. cacatuoides blue Peru)
3.3 Pygmy corydoras (C. pygmaeus)
2.0 Endlers' Livebearers (P. sp. Endlers)

76 degrees is good for an overall temp. I wouldn't even use any type of bulb. Just get a good hidebox partially covering the heatpad and that will create a nice warm spot which it will only get in after feeding usually. I have a few hides over the pad with some having more ventilation than others so some will be warmer than others. Be sure to have alot of hides throughout the entire cage bacause a baby might get nervous being in such a big enclosure. Good Luck, someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Jon

But thanks for the reply, nonetheless! Even Jeff mentioned keeping overall ambient temps in some of his enclosures, so perhaps it's OK after all.

As for the lights, I spent the last few hours doing a little experiment. I heated the tank using only the UTH, and the hot side reached about 75.5 degrees, and the cool side stayed about 73. I'd really like to bump the hot side up a little more still, but I'm worried about affecting the cool side like before.

As an aside, how on earth do you guys keep the front glass from fogging up? The humidity is at 80% in there right now, and I can't see a thing when I try to peer inside! Monitoring temps is difficult when you can't see the thermometer...
-----
::i believe in joy > http://www.winds.org/nekomi/hope.html

::my homepage > http://www.winds.org/nekomi

My Growing Zoo (Herps coming soon!):

1.0 Husband (Byron) ^_^
0.1 black cat (Shade)
1.2 Cockatoo cichlids (A. cacatuoides yellow-gold)
1.1 WC Cockatoo cichlids (A. cacatuoides blue Peru)
3.3 Pygmy corydoras (C. pygmaeus)
2.0 Endlers' Livebearers (P. sp. Endlers)

Nekomi,
....I bet you do have a temperature gradient in the cage. Under the substrate over the UTH it is probably much warmer than under the substrate at the other end of the cage. The substrae is probably somewhat insulating most of the cage from the warm floor. The snake will spend much of it's time under the substrate. If you had an IR temperature gun you could spot check temperatures on the floor of the cage and get a much better idea of the microclimates that the snake will actually be subjected to. These IR temp guns are pretty neat toys. I use them to get a spot temperature on the snakes and most of my BRBs are usually in the part of the cage where their body temperature in the mid 70s. They do get into the warmer spots when digesting or gestating. With a room temperature of 73 I am sure you will not need anything more than the thermostatically controlled UTH under one end of the cage. The light would just cause the snake to spend more time hiding under the substrate. I have kept little BRBs in shoeboxes stacked inside my big boa cages with no thermal gradient and they did fine with the temperature anywhere in the low to mid 70s. Problems occur when people have them in cages with no thermal gradient and temperatures in the mid 80 or higher. I have even kept little BRBs unheated during the winter with room and cage temperatures in the upper 60s for most of the time for several weeks. It really is nice to see that people do research and set up and test cages before they get snakes. I get emails all the time from people with new Rainbow Boas with shedding problems and they invariably have them set up in cages just like they or their friend's Boa Constrictor or Ball Python cage.
Jeff

>>But thanks for the reply, nonetheless! Even Jeff mentioned keeping overall ambient temps in some of his enclosures, so perhaps it's OK after all.
>>
>>As for the lights, I spent the last few hours doing a little experiment. I heated the tank using only the UTH, and the hot side reached about 75.5 degrees, and the cool side stayed about 73. I'd really like to bump the hot side up a little more still, but I'm worried about affecting the cool side like before.
>>
>>As an aside, how on earth do you guys keep the front glass from fogging up? The humidity is at 80% in there right now, and I can't see a thing when I try to peer inside! Monitoring temps is difficult when you can't see the thermometer...
>>-----
>>::i believe in joy > http://www.winds.org/nekomi/hope.html
>>
>>::my homepage > http://www.winds.org/nekomi
>>
>>My Growing Zoo (Herps coming soon!):
>>
>>1.0 Husband (Byron) ^_^
>>0.1 black cat (Shade)
>>1.2 Cockatoo cichlids (A. cacatuoides yellow-gold)
>>1.1 WC Cockatoo cichlids (A. cacatuoides blue Peru)
>>3.3 Pygmy corydoras (C. pygmaeus)
>>2.0 Endlers' Livebearers (P. sp. Endlers)

Jeff,

Thank you so much for your reply!

I think I'll have to pick up a heat gun after all. I really wanted to get one, but were a bit out of my budget while I was buying cage supplies.

You're right, there are probably many hotter and cooler spots. I feel a lot better now! As for the substrate, I felt it and the cool side's substrate is cooler like you mentioned. Should I make the substrate deeper so that the snake can burrow a bit more? It's about half an inch thick all across right now.

I'll run the cage right now with just the UTH. Eventually, I'd really like to use a light, though - the room is very dim, and I have to really struggle to see inside even during the day. If anything, I would probably just use a dim incandescent as a "spotlight" effect. Perhaps I'll experiment with a low-wattage bulb later on, but not now.

Thanks again for the help! I've been researching rainbows for over a year now and finally have the means to set up a cage for one. They have always captured my fascination. I'm glad there are forums like this where research is easily done!

PS > Anyone know how to keep the glass from fogging up? Some people over on the dart frog forums use Rain-X or Fog-X (for car windshields) to keep the glass clear, but I'm not so sure about that... what does everyone here do?
-----
::i believe in joy > http://www.winds.org/nekomi/hope.html

::my homepage > http://www.winds.org/nekomi

My Growing Zoo (Herps coming soon!):

1.0 Husband (Byron) ^_^
0.1 black cat (Shade)
1.2 Cockatoo cichlids (A. cacatuoides yellow-gold)
1.1 WC Cockatoo cichlids (A. cacatuoides blue Peru)
3.3 Pygmy corydoras (C. pygmaeus)
2.0 Endlers' Livebearers (P. sp. Endlers)

Nekomi,
...Rain-X and Fog-X are great products but nothing will keep fog off the inside of the glass all the time. There are a couple places advertising here on kingsnake that have the new small temp guns for low prices.
Jeff

>>Jeff,
>>
>>Thank you so much for your reply!
>>
>>I think I'll have to pick up a heat gun after all. I really wanted to get one, but were a bit out of my budget while I was buying cage supplies.
>>
>>You're right, there are probably many hotter and cooler spots. I feel a lot better now! As for the substrate, I felt it and the cool side's substrate is cooler like you mentioned. Should I make the substrate deeper so that the snake can burrow a bit more? It's about half an inch thick all across right now.
>>
>>I'll run the cage right now with just the UTH. Eventually, I'd really like to use a light, though - the room is very dim, and I have to really struggle to see inside even during the day. If anything, I would probably just use a dim incandescent as a "spotlight" effect. Perhaps I'll experiment with a low-wattage bulb later on, but not now.
>>
>>Thanks again for the help! I've been researching rainbows for over a year now and finally have the means to set up a cage for one. They have always captured my fascination. I'm glad there are forums like this where research is easily done!
>>
>>PS > Anyone know how to keep the glass from fogging up? Some people over on the dart frog forums use Rain-X or Fog-X (for car windshields) to keep the glass clear, but I'm not so sure about that... what does everyone here do?
>>-----
>>::i believe in joy > http://www.winds.org/nekomi/hope.html
>>
>>::my homepage > http://www.winds.org/nekomi
>>
>>My Growing Zoo (Herps coming soon!):
>>
>>1.0 Husband (Byron) ^_^
>>0.1 black cat (Shade)
>>1.2 Cockatoo cichlids (A. cacatuoides yellow-gold)
>>1.1 WC Cockatoo cichlids (A. cacatuoides blue Peru)
>>3.3 Pygmy corydoras (C. pygmaeus)
>>2.0 Endlers' Livebearers (P. sp. Endlers)

Invest in a temp gun...they are more useful than the thermometer on the cage wall. You can buy one for $31.00 including shipping. My experience has been that the most simple, less expensive one will be more than than adequate. The other thing is that I suggest you set the temps for at least 24 hrs before adjusting it in any way. It takes a day or two, not a few hours to see what it actually is doing. As far as the condensation on the glass...well....personally I think it is a good sign. BRB's are secretive and nocturnal so anything that allows them to hide behind is welcome for mine. I would not use any product on the surface to stop the condensation. It is really kinda interesting to see how "tracks" are formed by the snake touching the sides and dispersing the droplets. You can tell they were active at night. I also commend you on the setting up of the enclosure before bringing the BRB home. It took me 2 weeks to get the temp and humidity to a place I was comfortable with. I did the same thing that you did, it just took alot longer than I thought it would. Let us know if you have anything else. Good luck.

Linda

-----
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance- that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer

Sunshine,

Thank you so much for the reply. I always enjoy reading your posts and contributions to this forum! Your recent BRB photos were beautiful.

I think I'll definitely pick up a temperature gun, perhaps tomorrow when I look for a BRB at the All-Ohio Reptile Show. I think that it would be a worthwhile investment, especially after reading everyone's posts.

That aside, I haven't touched the cage since yesterday night, and it's been running on only the UTH with the top completely covered. The hot side reaches 77 max (usually 76.5 or so) and the cool side stays right around 73-74. Humidity has remained stable at 78-81%. Of course, as everyone mentioned, a heat gun could show me the temps of the hides, substrate, etc.

In any case, I ordered a sliding door cage with the same dimensions about a month ago, and it's going to be ready for pickup next Friday. I'll hold off on any experimenting until then, since I can tweak the new cage some while my BRB is safely housed in the old one.

Although I understand the benefits of letting the glass fog up, I believe that the cage should have adequate hiding spots and security, especially with three sides painted (it is a very naturalistic enclosure with lots of hides, climbing branches, and silk plants). I think I might try the Rain-X/Fog-X on the new cage's front doors when it arrives. And from what I've heard, it's temporary (once a month thing), so if it causes stress, I could certainly decide not to use it again. Thanks however, for making me think twice about it. It's healthy.

I can't wait to post pictures of my new BRB and the setup! Wish me luck in finding the right snake tomorrow.
-----
::i believe in joy > http://www.winds.org/nekomi/hope.html

::my homepage > http://www.winds.org/nekomi

My Growing Zoo (Herps coming soon!):

1.0 Husband (Byron) ^_^
0.1 black cat (Shade)
1.2 Cockatoo cichlids (A. cacatuoides yellow-gold)
1.1 WC Cockatoo cichlids (A. cacatuoides blue Peru)
3.3 Pygmy corydoras (C. pygmaeus)
2.0 Endlers' Livebearers (P. sp. Endlers)

Just thought I'd post an update for anyone who's interested.

The cage temps are now very stable - Sunshine was quite right when she mentioned that a cage needs a day or two to finalize. Hot side is now consistently 80-81 degrees, cool side is usually 73, sometimes reaching 74. Humidity is now remaining about 83%. I'm very happy with the results, thanks to everyone for the help!
-----
::i believe in joy > http://www.winds.org/nekomi/hope.html

::my homepage > http://www.winds.org/nekomi

My Growing Zoo:

1.0 Husband (Byron) ^_^
0.1 black cat (Shade)
0.1 Brazilian Rainbow Boa (Zia)
1.2 Cockatoo cichlids (A. cacatuoides yellow-gold)
1.1 WC Cockatoo cichlids (A. cacatuoides blue Peru)
3.3 Pygmy corydoras (C. pygmaeus)
2.0 Endlers' Livebearers (P. sp. Endlers)