Reptile & Amphibian Forums

just couldn't stay away. read the long posts and laughed at some of the crazy responses. I also read the one where the lady asked about feeding veggies to her monitor and only one person replied and that was with the old canned (oops maybe i shouldn't use that word on this forum) answer, use mice it is what is proven! Maybe she would have gotten more of a response if she asked about dog food! The fact is i want to set some things straight. I probably wrongly titled my message with the words dog food after reading some entries and disagreeing with the responses that the person got about all you need to feed is mice and crickets. I titled it as such because i thought it would get everyones attention. It did that but although i listed a number of other things i feed my monitors, somehow things got so spun that all of a sudden i was feeding only dog food because i cannot afford crickets and other such garbage. There must be some polical advisors on this forum cause they can sure put a spin on things. For those guys who feel that they are ok with climbing the hill only half way and wanting to take a rest, thats ok. You can do that. Yes it is proven that monitors can be successful kept in captivity on a diet of mice and crickets. Yes they are even able to successfully reproduce. But if you think for one minute that mice and crickets in any way, shape or form, duplicates the nutrients they recieve in the wild, you are highly mistaken. Therefore there is more hill to climb, with you or not, that is your decision. Now there is no way we can replicate the unbelievably varied diet of most of these monitors. Unless you have a reliable source for scorpions and fruit bats, rotten carcasses of cus cus or slow lories, rhino beetles and so on, then we must find alternatives that will provide a good assortment of vitamins and minerals. If you look at my post and forget the title for a minute, in addition to dog food i listed such things as escargo/snail, quail eggs, raw beef, freshwater eel and a variety of fish, earthworm and so on. Nobody even addressed those. it was only dog food is bad (which is wrong) and only mice and crickets is good. Feeding mainly a dog food diet is bad. No, duh. I think we figured that one out somewhere around the hot rock/fish tank era. That is in no way shape or form what needs to be discussed. When i supplement my mice and crix, i do not feed any less of them. I SUPPLEMENT them. mice and crix are 85-90% of the diet. the other 10-15% is as great a variety of food as i can possibly consider to be of value to them, including dog food. If you can get over your prejudices and brainwashing that somehow a can of dog food is filled with dangerous toxic waste or some other crap that some neandrethals (of course not on this forum) want you to believe, it is nothing more than additional nutrients. Hell I will eat a can of it if it makes you feel any better. I did consider the cat food that several other people discussed and i will add it into my arsenal but please remember one thing, these things are supplements. So today when i wake up i prepair quail eggs, that will be todays supplement. Tommorow blue crab is on the diet and the day after raw lean beef with vitamin supplement. Next day it is a can of dog food. and so on and so on and it will probably be 2 weeks before i get back around to canned dog food. And this menu is IN ADDITION TO mice and crickets. Now, if you can seriously tell me that your diet of mice only is better than mine you are so closed minded it is unbelievable. Yes i know, i have seen the pictures (more than once, thank you) but lets get beyond that (and i honestly am not talking to any one person here). i came to this forum to meet people and exchange information but if there is no information because we are unwilling to continue down the road and be innovative only because we have had the taste of success, then whats the sense of even having the forum other than to laugh at other people? I am constantly researching specific locations and spend a lot of time in indonesia researching what the diet is in the wild, not so i can feed them the same things but so i can try to at least understand their basic needs and find things that will help to supplement the mice. I do not expect someone that has breeding adults that consistantly produce good healthy babies to do anything except continue what they are doing. it would be stupid to change one single thing but for everyone else, if you do nothing to improve the husbandry of these monitors then your legacy will be that you did nothing to improve the husbandry of these monitors. For those old timers who have contributed to improving the husbandry techniques throughout the years, my hat is off to you but it is my strongest belief that there is more road to hoe and just like all living things, evolution does not or should not stop when it comes to improving the care for species that are becoming endangered in their natural habitat. I tried to remain positive in this entry and although i feel that i was wrongly accosted in previous posts, i welcome any and all persons desiring to create a constructive dialogue. Although i have several issues in previous posts that i feel are erroneous, i have decided to just let them die and begin fresh to see who is really serious about what they do and where they want to go with this.

First the spin people put on your posts, its the exact spin you put on my posts. You do not read them thoroughly. You pick out parts and run with them. Just like they do.

For instance, I do not recomend mice and crickets, I recomend whole foods. I have always said that. I also do not single out dogfood but all canned foods. Just reread the threads and see.

Second do not write long paragraphs, people(including me) read the first few sentences and then go bla, bla, bla, in their minds.

Also, no one here is paid to respond to any or all posts, they are free to choose what and went they want to help or to share. Over time, you become very choosy. You tend to avoid troublesome subjects that have been asked several million times. If your worried about the veggie feeder, you help, personally lots of monitors eat veggies and veggies are most likely a better choice then dogfood(if your monitor eat it).

And lastly, you are free to ingnore the above just like you and all others are free to ignore all my posts or anyone elses posts.

The major problem with forums is this, this are meant for sharing, a give and take. They are not a self help site for the needy. The needy are most likely better off going to a vet for help. At least he gets paid. Now you should realize as a intelligent human that you are, I said, the vet gets paid. That leads to several important thoughts.

Which are. The needy, the ones who start their posts with, help me, help me. or Urgent, Or my monitors dying, help me. Or even more complicated, my monitor won't poop and is going to blow up. These folks most likely come here because they think they can get free advice. What they end up getting is a plethera of responces for the ill adviced to the expert, but never from a vet. Which is what they need in the first place. Hopefully they do not come here as a last resort.

The needy also include folks who think coming to an internet site is research. hmmmmmmmmmmm listening to a ton of babble(including mine) is not RESEARCH, its conversation. Please understand that, its only conversation.

Lastly, some think I go by its, "my way or the highway" is totally wrong. Well, actually I can make it fit. Lets see, I believe its better if interpided like this, "I use my way, if you don't like it, you are free to use the highway"

Now see, you made me break the third rule of posting, do not make long posts, just like with long paragraphs, after the first few paragraphs, it turns to Bla, bla, bla, etc.

p.s. the stuff about you do all this and that, is not effective in words, you need to show what you do, in pics, the reason is simple, we have all seen the I do this and thats, over and over again. When you do that, you just fall into a group we have seen before. Consider, we have seen some that were expert at that.

For some reason they(experts without pics) all have broken processors and cams, and their scanner does not work, etc, etc. A trip to walgreens easily fixes all that. IT does seem, the smartest fellas out there are the worst with computers. The more opinioned and aggressive they are, the least they know about computers. How odd. FR

you sir, are a trip. I made a simple entry explaining my computer got fried. I should have it back tomorrow and would then send some pics. You even question that. ha ha. you kill me. but not in a good way. I am using my sons laptop now and my scanner is not broken but i do not know how one would go about scanning a monitor. Perhaps you are just too smart for me. When i get my computer back i will send you a picture of the repair order. Until then you will just have to assume that i am just another moron not worthy of visiting the same forum as you. I truthfully thought i posted a letter that had something that was factual and of substance that someone could use to begin a constructive dialogue with. Instead of addressing the topics I discussed you lectured me about how a forum works and that my entries are too long. I am not a newbe herper nor am i a stranger to forums. Only forums with a guy like you on it. You really take the cake. is that short enough for you?

Scanning your monitor would be pretty tough, you may want to try scanning the picture of the monitor that will be much easier.

Bring on the stuff about monitors, I would love to SEE that. I must be hard of hearing, but I can see. I Thank you, FR

Guys.. I mean come on. Me being, probably, one of the youngest on the forums, has to say this. You're all acting like a bunch of children! hahaha, that was fun. Anyways, why are you guys going back and forth on eachother? Why can't we all DISCUSS our bringing ups of monitors and everything without pointing mean fingers at eachother? Everytime I come to the forums i see at east 4 posts of negative actions towards someone, can't we all just get along? You send the pics, it's all fine and dandy. Lets just help people out with their questions that have been answered in old posts and they want people to recognize them and not the person that made the post a LONG TIME AGO. I mean, what else are we gonna do? slit eachothers throats? haha.. no
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1.0 Savannah Monitor - Artimus
2.0 Emerald Swift - Jesus, unnamed
1.0 Baby veiled Cham - Sir August De Winter 1-20-05 RIP
1.0 Green Iguana - King Arthur
1.0 Rose-hair tarantula - Bill
1.0 Basilisk - Adam
0.1 Water Dragon - Lady

You should understand, people simply cannot get along. Just look around, there are people killing people on a small scale, a large scale, in masses, with bombs, with knives and guns and on your local streets.

So a little heated discussion on here is, well sorta fun and refreshing. Please do not take it so serious. ITs only about lizards.

All I ask is, this fella show his, this and that, and the result of such. After all, hes the one who said he has and did all this and that. I asked very nicely, even said please. I ask that, because so many people make up so many stories, and for reasons I truly do not understand. FR

fr, i truly have nothing against you, only the way you reply to my posts. it gives me the impression you are going out of your way to criticize me without even knowing me. I am not someone who is easily intimidated and will stand my ground when i need to. i came here looking to find others with similar interests as mine and am happy to say i have already found at least one that i already feel comfortable with (jobi) and wish you would not hold a grudge and require people to prove themselves because of things other people did in the past. that is not my fault and if you give more people a little time to get to know them before you assume they are liars, perhaps we all could learn more from each other. you are not the only one who seems to be a bit misdirected (not meant to be a cut), i see guys criticizing grammar and other things that have no bearing whatsoever on the persons ability to keep monitors. i agree that a little friendly arguing is healthy but if you are not friends before you start arguing, then it is not a friendly arguement. i will take you for what you are and try to understand that but it does not mean i will back down from personal attacks. hopefully we can work through the hostility and get to know each other but if not, that is ok too as i am sure that there are others who are interested in sharing a common interest. thanks, don.

You are the one who attacked me. If you read the original post, It was about the other fella feeding dogfood to an ackie. If you feel the post was aggressive, and challanging, and put you in a position to defend yourself, it was. Afterall, you came on like someone who could actually defend their position. But you haven't.

As far as holding a grudge, I do not. I do not know you, you are no more then a bunch of words on a screen. Your words are the same as many before you. And I do not mean your reaction to me. As when I leave here for periods of time, people with your approach come and attack whom ever is here at the time. They attack, then after this bores them, they leave. This pattern is very repetitive.

The young ones, attack and cuss and degrade, then say, this place sucks then leave to another venue. The older smarter ones, attack, spew out material they read or heard, then threaten to leave and ask for people to support them. They do this back and forth, then leave, just like the younger ones.

I do not care what your personality is, rude or not, man or women,gay or not, ugly or not, young, old, beginer or expert. All I ask is back what you say. IF you come out with something I do not agree with, I will ask for you to back it up. Is that wrong?

If you come here and want to respond to every post, please have at it. If you offer good advice, I will thank you. I long for the day I get to learn from somebody. Its very tiring(makes you rude) to be the only one helping all these needy people, without even a thanks. If fact, you normally get attacked for not telling them what they want to hear. I would love for another person to help here, and it could be you.

I support Shvar, even if we do not agree on many things, when he gives good advice, which is most of the time, I support him. He has been wonderful for this forum, and does a tireless job. Again, it would be wonderful for you to help out. The supply of needy people is endless.

I normally do not respond to beginer questions, I save my time and effort to discuss with the experts that may or may not be off track.

Please understand, I do not get a kick out of this, I help here for many reasons, like I am an old Greyband fella and the main man here(KS) is too, we are friends from that area. So, I support him whenever I can. I also try to help because of the luck and results I have had(paying back) and for the monitors.

With that in mind, please bring it on, you know, about the monitors. So far, your the one only talking about people.

So before you actually go on responding to all the questions, please show what gives you the ability to do so. That way, I and others would be comfortable(have some faith) with your comments.

No offense, but so far, its old text, that is, its published material, not personal experience.

Remember, forums are not books, or science, or even correct, they are, a gathering of people with like interests, discussing their personal experiences. If we wanted to read the text, the books, and the papers, we would/and most likely already have. Thanks and enjoy yourself. FR

fr, i did as you asked and reread my post dtd feb 10th. absolutely nothing negative or any reference made toward you or anyone else on this forum. Sorry but you are mistaken. your reply confuses me, i put my best foot forward and perhaps in your own special way you have done the same. it may just be that just as you do not know me, i do not know you. time will tell. i will attempt to post a few pictures i took today using my sons laptop (if i can figure out how to do it using his programs) as my computer did not come back from the shop today as it was suppose to. i do not do just monitors, as a matter of fact, due to my moving half way across the world a short while back, my monitor program is still relatively small compared to my many other projects.

You said you were a greyband man years ago so perhaps we know some of the same people. I lived in tx for some years. i was pres. of a tx herp society back in the 80's and many of us would make an annual trek to west tx looking for alterna(and mexico looking for margaritas). i have not seen him in 20 years but do you know buzz? I also use to run the herp rescue program with dr wayne zeh and visit ron tremper down in boerne. there are others but my memory has been slipping the last few years. I may also be wrongly assuming you are from tx.

as far as me leaving, you almost ran me away when i first got into it with you because i did not need the frustration but after talking to a few people on the forum and because of the fact that i am as hard headed as you are, i will be around when time permits.

Yes I know Buzz Ross and Ron Tremper, and Denny Miller(CDI) and Dave Barker, and their wifes and have known them for many years. I got my first V.tristis, from Ron and also a male perenty. The shipment went to the wrong address and that was that. Also, it was Ron that imformed me of the Europeans and their monitor efforts. He was the one importing them.

The problem is, your original approach is done very commonly, The burst in the door approach.

While I am sure your a great fella and a heck of a guy, you say, you do not have the monitors that you will have. The point still remains, what do you have and what have you done with them, now and in the past. That is what is important here.

Please understand, the monitor world is not so different then the rest of the herp world, only with far less success. That has led to so many verbal experts that have not done a thing. So I/we are sensitive to that. There is simply to much bad and harmful information being tossed around.

The subjects of UV and whole foods in central to much bad information. The studies done with UV and monitors are very very weak and well, useless. None were done with successful keepers. That is, some one who had a proven history. For instance, one group aquired monitors, they were normal wc, imports. Which means they were stress all to heck and back. They measured screened their blood. They then gave them a cage with UV bulbs, fed them and after short period, tested their blood levels again. Guess what, it improved. They then attribute this to UV bulbs. Hmmmmmmmmmmmm any old bulb would have done the same. They then move on to another project. This is a common approach.

Even without the above, all the tests were short term and had no checks and balances. I would love for them to test our captives that are raised with incandesent bulbs.

Remember, lack of UV is suppose to be bad, then why do mine grow to fast, grow too big, produce to much and do it for too long? all without calicum problems??? How odd. FR