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Breeding problems

capnmoby Feb 14, 2005 08:57 AM

Alright, here goes. This is a follw-up to a post I made last week.
I finally did it. I placed my Cali kings together. As you'll see below, I've had some difficulty with knowing when the time was right. Alas, it was NOT time. I put the male in with her and very quickly things turned ugly. It wasn't a matter of them striking at each other and trying to get away. I mentioned to my wife that it looked more like the female was hunting when the male went in. She started at the tail and worked hr way up. As soon as she saw his head she pounced. Before I could react she had three coils around him and was sqeezing pretty hard (she is 3" and 40% heavier).
I was able to get them apart without too much difficulty, and the male seems OK, a little spot of blood behind his head. but otherwise good. The next few hours the female was prowling her cage, and the male was active for at least 8 hours more.
Last week I posted that message regarding how to know when the female is ready. A year ago she didn't go through a shed for two months and by that time it was too late. It looks like she's going to do it again this year. She's been out of cooling and eating for nearly a month now and shiwing no signs of a shed.
So now I have worries. I do not know if, when she'll be ready. I also do not know if I'll be able to put them together again. It's really making me doubt my little project. I purchased them a few years ago to breed them, and this clearly isn't the result I was looking for. It's a bit disheartening.
If anyone has any advice for me that would help me to get through this anmake it work, I would be grateful. Thanks.

--Doug

Replies (7)

Keith Hillson Feb 14, 2005 10:01 AM

Well I have to ask the obvious first of all in that are you sure you have a pair ? Did you sex them yourself ? or have someone you know to be good at it sex them ? One thing to help insure an early shed is too feed the female heavy and to introduce them regardless of shed as this will get them both a little pumped for breeding.

Keith
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capnmoby Feb 14, 2005 10:59 AM

Yes, the sexes have been verified. As far as feeding the female, she's been taking 2 adult mice a week.

rtdunham Feb 14, 2005 08:38 PM

Doug, just a couple other thoughts.
You say last year she shed two months after warming up and by then it was "too late". What's the foundation for that statement: They showed no interest in each other? One did, one didn't? If she's been up for a month that means you warmed them in January. It's hard for me to imagine that putting them together in March would be "too late" so i think there may be other explanations worth considering as well.
Feeding more aggressively, as suggested by others, is a good idea. In addition to being a possible stimulant for reproductive behavior, it will accelerate progress toward the female's shed so she coincides with the male's readiness--AND doesn't drive you crazy while you wait and worry. BTW, males can father second clutches with breedings well into the summer so it's sure not likely March was "too late" for the male.
I think waiting is a good idea, and patience a virtue. And I"m speaking from hard-earned experience!
These animals have their own internal mechanisms, and we can't fully understand them, and we can only partly manage them. When people post about their breeding strategies, those are averages, things that work with most of their animals, etc. There are always exceptions. I think if you put them together and nothing happens--or worse, as in your case, there's a feeding response--it makes sense to chill, wait a week or ten days, and try again. You won't miss a receptive period if you try every week, but you can't FORCE them to breed when they're not ready. I'm assuming you cooled them properly and for a suitable length of time....wanna provide any details on that? Maybe someone more knolwedgeable than i can make suggestions on that front.
Anyway, I'm a pretty obsessive guy, and i spent some early years fussing over every detail, trying again in two days if something didn't work. I've learned that may have had more to do with addressing MY needs & anxieties than it did with the logic of catching the snakes at the right time.
So I'm encouraging you to not worry--because there's not a lot you can do about it: If they're going to breed, they will, and if you brumated them ok and keep them feeding and put them together only at reasonable intervals, you'll catch them during a period of readiness. If that never happens, it's not your fault, one or the other of them may simply be an animal that's not going to breed. That may be discouraging, but don't let it paint a broad swatch of futility over your enthusiasm for breeding.
peace
terry

>>Alright, here goes. This is a follw-up to a post I made last week.
>> I finally did it. I placed my Cali kings together. As you'll see below, I've had some difficulty with knowing when the time was right. Alas, it was NOT time. I put the male in with her and very quickly things turned ugly. It wasn't a matter of them striking at each other and trying to get away. I mentioned to my wife that it looked more like the female was hunting when the male went in. She started at the tail and worked hr way up. As soon as she saw his head she pounced. Before I could react she had three coils around him and was sqeezing pretty hard (she is 3" and 40% heavier).
>> I was able to get them apart without too much difficulty, and the male seems OK, a little spot of blood behind his head. but otherwise good. The next few hours the female was prowling her cage, and the male was active for at least 8 hours more.
>> Last week I posted that message regarding how to know when the female is ready. A year ago she didn't go through a shed for two months and by that time it was too late. It looks like she's going to do it again this year. She's been out of cooling and eating for nearly a month now and shiwing no signs of a shed.
>> So now I have worries. I do not know if, when she'll be ready. I also do not know if I'll be able to put them together again. It's really making me doubt my little project. I purchased them a few years ago to breed them, and this clearly isn't the result I was looking for. It's a bit disheartening.
>> If anyone has any advice for me that would help me to get through this anmake it work, I would be grateful. Thanks.
>>
>>--Doug

ZFelicien Feb 14, 2005 11:08 PM

From your post it seems you placed the male in the female's enclosure, is that so? I'm yet to breed any thing and I'll be attempting to do so this year for the first time.. I have however been reading alot about it and one thing the cautioned was a male being placed in a female's enclosure #1 you run the risk of her eating him and #2 her scent will be all over the enclosure thus making it more difficult for the male to get her "where he wants her." the female should be placed in the male's enclosure (so the book stated), and try feeding her a hefty meal before you introduce them...

hope that helps you some...

~ZF

Kerby... Feb 15, 2005 04:44 PM

I ALWAYS let the male crawl into the female's cage with her recent shed being the first thing that he sees and smells. I always put the male into the female's cage and here is why..........

In the wild it is the male who will find a female shed and then commence to tracking her down by smell (sometimes taking days). It is not the female that goes onto a male's turf (so-to-speak) in the wild. Some people have stated that putting a female into a male's cage is "submissive", and THAT is pure BS. If she ain't ready to breed, she won't do it on his turf either!

Breeding WILL NOT OCCUR until the female is ready. And although their first and sometimes second shed after brumation are signals that the female is ready, it is not always the case. I always attempt after first shed and not all will breed then. I too have had female's try to kill the male (why I always watch) upon introduction; not alot, but it does happen. Only to have them successfully breed a few days later.

Also, some females will refuse to breed a certain male, only to accept another male a few minutes later.

Although feeding is a good idea prior to introduction, if the female isn't ready for breeding then feeding just prior is irrelevant to her putting coils on her mate.

If they are both ready to breed then it probably doesn't matter who goes into who's cage.............

And why is it that it is the female that is always pissy about breeding? LOL

Kerby...

ZFelicien Feb 15, 2005 09:49 PM

Thanx, that was informative...

question: what about a neutral enclosure? have you ever tried it?

What's the best way to get a snake off another without injuring either of them?

~ZF

Kerby... Feb 15, 2005 11:41 PM

I've never tried a neutral enclosure.

When they do latch onto one or the other or both, I just grab them by the head and slowly pry their moths off. Since I am watching, it is only seconds and no damage is done.

Kerby...

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