Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hello to all,
Here is a question that jumped into my head last night as I was falling asleep and being rather new to snakes the terminology of morphs etc... is still somewhat difficult to grasp.
A snow bull, is it leucistic or Albino? or is it something completely different.

Thanks for the info,
Charles

snow bull = albino white-sided bullsnake. The "snow" is sorta a misnomer for improved marketing and selling aspects. Either way, it is NOT a Leucistic animal. If you ever get one in your hands, you'll realize that they are NOT completely white with NO pattern nor do they have black eyes.

You know it is a bad thing when you can't sleep because of snake terminology questions, right. Ever considered joinging Herpers Anonymous? I'm the president....lol.

KJ

*lol* yeppers, I have lost alot of sleep due to terminology question and the such...

Here is another question, Is there a Leucistic bull?

Thanks Again,
Charles
"Long live the North" - *lol*

>> Here is another question, Is there a Leucistic bull?

No, there is NO true Leucistic bullsnake; however, the term "Leucistic" is used to describe "white-sided hypo axanthic speckled" bullsnakes (4 traits in one animals). So, the answer to your question is "Yes, but it is not a true Leucistic."

>>Thanks Again,
>>Charles
>>"Long live the North" - *lol*

Hey, as long as it wouldn't try to impose its way of life and overly strong central governements on the south, I'd agree with that whole-heartedly! Until then, God Bless Bobby Lee, Stonewall, and Old Pete. Haahaa.
KJ

It's good to know what genes are involved in the Leucistic Bull, but why aren't there any Axanthic Bulls around? There's only one breeder that I know of. Also, does Axanthic mean a lack of red and yellow pigment thus leaving only black and white? Are the Leucistic Pines true, if so why are they yellow/pink instead of pure white? Thanks!

>>It's good to know what genes are involved in the Leucistic Bull, but why aren't there any Axanthic Bulls around?

There are two proven lines of "true" axanthic bullsnakes out there, one proven line that died out before making it to market (or so I've been told), and at least one UNPROVEN line out there to my knowledge. Of the two proven lines, they aren't solid black and white like in a good aner corn. They aren't as pretty as I dreamed they would be, but that's mother nature for you. They are still awesome in their own right. Why are they hard to find? Mostly because they haven't been pushed hard or marketted much. It is coming, though.

>> There's only one breeder that I know of.

Email me and we can talk some more on this.

>> Also, does Axanthic mean a lack of red and yellow pigment thus leaving only black and white?

Axanthic means lacking yellow pigmentation. Anerythristic means lacking red pigmentation. As with Leucistic bulls, people often name things for a look and not a biochemicl trait. Just because someone CALLS it an axanthic, that doesn't mean it IS an axanthic. It just means it looks sorta like they would imagine an axanthic would look. Wrong, but often that is the best we can do.

On this note, some people still insist on erronously calling a white-sided bullsnake an anerythristic. First, they are NOT anerythristic as many albino white-sided (= snow) bulls prove with the amount of red/orange they develop on their spine. Don't confuse white-sided bullsnakes with anerythristic bullsnakes or axanthic bullsnakes since they are neither one!

> Are the Leucistic Pines true, if so why are they yellow/pink instead of pure white? Thanks!

They aren't true. "Leucistic" souther (=Florida) pinesnakes are hypo patternless southern pines, if I remember correctly. They are NOT really Leucistic animals (as you hint at with your description of them), but were called that by Mark Bell as an aide to sell them for top dollar. Again, a phenotypic description of what he wanted them to look like with no regard for the biochemistry of the animal. Happens a lot.

There are only a COUPLE of true Leucistic animals, to my knowledge, that have been PROVEN to be inheritable: Texas ratsnakes and Western Hognoses are the ones that come to mind first.

KJ

The axanthics I saw were black and white, with no red, maybe they weren't true axanthics. I can't remember the breeder but they were selling for around $350! It's a shame that some Pits are given false names to make more money off them.

np

>>The axanthics I saw were black and white, with no red, maybe they weren't true axanthics.

Axanthic and Anerythristic are two terms that are frequently used interchangeably in herpetoculture sometimes. Heck, it might be the same mutation biologically, but we humans call it axanthism in a snake with a lot of yellow as its natural coloration (e.g., bullsnakes or subocs) and we call it anerythrism in snakes with a lot of orange or red as its natural coloration (e.g., cornsnakes).

>> I can't remember the breeder but they were selling for around $350! It's a shame that some Pits are given false names to make more money off them.

Happens in all snakes, I believe. Pits are just becoming worth more money, so we have started seeing it in this group of animals, too. Many are honest miisnomers, I think. Anyway, we've just got to live with it.

KJ

I think it's technically possible for a snake to be missing red but not yellow or vice versa. But that would probably get labled hypoxanthism or something similar. Or probably wouldn't even get noticed. I know in kenyan sand boas, the one black and white mutation gets called both anery and axanthic.
BTW, there's a leucistic leopard gecko, monacled cobra, and I believe a ball python now. Still one of the rarest of morphs. I also think, as an outsider, that it's dumb to be calling a white sided morph snow. Citizens for Solidarity in Morph Naming!

I have a couple of Miami county, Kansas axanthic bulls. They are not "black and white" like pines. You can view them on KJ's "the pituophis page". While they do have alot of black and white, they also have a very light buff or tan on the dorsal ground color.

CK