Reptile & Amphibian Forums

...could this not be a model for reptiles?

I think likely not, because most falconers are much more professional, experienced and dedicated than the typical 'hobbyist'.
Link

Matt,

Steve has been saying this for years...

Hope all's well,

-Michael

Yes, Matt...your so correct.

Al
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The more people I meet...the better I like my venomous snakes.

Matt, coming from both sides as a falconer and a keeper of venomous herps, all I can say is that I agree with your comment 100% Falconers take what they do VERY, VERY seriously and you see very few, if any, irresponsible falconers. Why? Because they have gone through the proper training, approvals, time commitments, proven resources and subsequent inspections of their facilities. If every venomous herp owner had to do this, there would just be a small group of very dedicated, professional, competent, mature, serious, and passionate people keeping them.....and boy do I wish that is how it could be! Unfortunately, there are far too many yahoos out there keeping hots who have no business (or "right" in keeping them. Save your rants folks, anyone taking shots at me will only prove my point. I have been making this argument for years but everyone tells me that I am comparing apples to oranges....well, as I said, coming from both sides, the keeping of hots and raptors is not that much different.

Cheers,
Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center
Lake Forest, IL

>>...could this not be a model for reptiles?
>>
>>I think likely not, because most falconers are much more professional, experienced and dedicated than the typical 'hobbyist'.
>>Link
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

Well, to me, raptoring would seem to be the equivalent of keeping a single snake that needs attention and feeding on a dialy basis. How many of those are out there and how popular are they? You'd be hard pressed to find a snake with such high daily care requirements. One of the attractions of snakes is that they are low maintenance, birds are not. So, that already creates a huge divide between the types of people that get into the different hobbies.
Additionally, I didnt realize that falconry was as available as you guys might make it seem, and Im sure each bird costs a lot more than an albino black rat snake, or WDB. So, the audience that pursues the falconry already has quite a seperation, I would think.
After proofreading what I have just written, Im not sure Im coming across as clearly as I would like, but I think I get my jist across.
I guess, on some level, I support the apples/oranges argument.
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Tom
TCJ Herps
"The more people I meet, the more I like my snakes"

Since I work with both raptors and venomous herps, while there are differences, I don't necessarily agree with your arguments. In terms of costs, obtaining a raptor is FREE; you get a permit to trap a wild raptor when participating in falconry. The cost of feeding a raptor is significantly higher, however, since they are kept outdoors year round, and, don't require any special heating or lighting (they get all of that from the real deal) there is far less energy costs compared to keeping even a small collection of venomous herps. The skills needed to do both require the utmost of attention to detail and expertise. I have several venomous herps who require as much if not more daily care than any of the raptors I keep so you can't use that argument. So, while raptors and reptiles are fairly different creatures, they both require a high level of expertise, maturity, and resources to keep in a responsible manner.

>>Well, to me, raptoring would seem to be the equivalent of keeping a single snake that needs attention and feeding on a dialy basis. How many of those are out there and how popular are they? You'd be hard pressed to find a snake with such high daily care requirements. One of the attractions of snakes is that they are low maintenance, birds are not. So, that already creates a huge divide between the types of people that get into the different hobbies.
>>Additionally, I didnt realize that falconry was as available as you guys might make it seem, and Im sure each bird costs a lot more than an albino black rat snake, or WDB. So, the audience that pursues the falconry already has quite a seperation, I would think.
>>After proofreading what I have just written, Im not sure Im coming across as clearly as I would like, but I think I get my jist across.
>>I guess, on some level, I support the apples/oranges argument.
>>-----
>>Tom
>>TCJ Herps
>>"The more people I meet, the more I like my snakes"
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

I agree with everything you said, and please help me understand about the daily care of your venomous snakes.
What kind are they and what kind of daily care do you have to provide?
Another comment I meant to make was about caging for raptors too, having some kind of large outdoor pen for them to live in, but thats kind of neither here nor there now that you've said your piece.
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Tom
TCJ Herps
"The more people I meet, the more I like my snakes"

I, too, should have been a bit more clear. I am rehabilitating several venomous species who require daily care (injections, swabbing of mouth, etc.); this is obviously not the norm nor is indicative of a "normal" daily routine (our facility rescues quite a few animals; a few include imported wild caught venomous snakes that get confiscated and come in very bad shape. BUT, raising baby eyelash vipers, white lipped vipers and a few others is a very painstaking and time consuming process; MUCH longer than caring for my raptors. Even my adult animals such as rhinoceros vipers/jameson's mambas/white lipped vipers require twice daily mistings and daily water changes, spot cleaning, dusting of the cages, cleaning cage fronts, etc....it all adds up. BUT, with all things being equal, that is, one venomous snake versus one raptor, the raptor takes more time.

Rob

>>I agree with everything you said, and please help me understand about the daily care of your venomous snakes.
>>What kind are they and what kind of daily care do you have to provide?
>>Another comment I meant to make was about caging for raptors too, having some kind of large outdoor pen for them to live in, but thats kind of neither here nor there now that you've said your piece.
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>>Tom
>>TCJ Herps
>>"The more people I meet, the more I like my snakes"
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

.
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Tom
TCJ Herps
"The more people I meet, the more I like my snakes"

Hey, Rob can you come by and dust my cages too?

Sorry couldn't resist. Talk with you later...
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Support your local herp society
www.chicagoherp.org

If all these anti-herp laws somehow had enough thought put into them to focus us into a group similar to the well respected falconry community I think it would be best for the people involved and the herps themselves. The problem with that though is that is asking the government to do what we should've done ourselves. I assume that the falconry hobby has a noble history and created it's position prior to the government needing to pass huge bans.
Rob, with your insight into falconry, what do you think could be parralelled into our herp community to set us into a similar position. Is the attitude towards breeding and importing everything in site, thus the easy availability of hots the main culprit? Is it hard to obtain a raptor? What else contributes to the numbers of yahoos out there with hots? (I assume that having a hawk is equally cool, thus if it were easy more people would have them impulsively.)

You raise some excellent questions for which I will try to answer as fully as possible. One of the examples I can think of off the top of my head, in terms of comparing something in the venomous field that would correlate to how the sport of falconry works, has to do with how the state of Illinois issues Endangered Species Permits. In order for me to keep a timber rattlesnake, blanding's turtle, western hognose or alligator snapper, I have to hold an Endangered Species Permit from the IL Dept of Natural Resources. I complete a very simple form and their department approves the permit. Each year, I submit an end of year report listing all of the various institutions I visited with these permitted animals for education purposes (same goes with animals that I might actually sell such as my Eastern Indigo Snakes). This process is not NEARLY as comprehensive or tightly regulated as the sport of falconry, however, with a little bit of tweeking, this same process could easily be adapted to individuals wishing to keep venomous herps. A few things that could be tweeked include: 1) completing a certification program for working with hots: my facility now offers 2 day certification programs for zoo, museum and nature center professionals on the ins and outs of venomous reptile management and handling. We are eventually going to open this up to individuals who are trying, for example, to get needed training to get permits in states where it is legal - Illinois residents would not be eligible unless they are associated with a zoo, museum or nature center. 2) anyone wishing to keep venomous should be required to be mentored by an experienced handler for "x" number of hours (kind of like what Florida does)....this is similar to falconry in that apprentices have to work under a master falconry for a long period of time before they are even allowed to keep a SINGLE bird. 3) Permit Fees: I don't like government regulations but if we don't get proactive now, and, take the initiative by showing the government that we want to self regulate our hobby, through their approval, we are doomed. It works great for falconry and it can work great for venomous reptiles. Some communities outlaw the keeping of reptiles AND raptors. But, I have found that it is much easier to get special use permits if you have a certain "license" or permit like that for falconry....same could hold for venomous.

I was going to write more but its time to get back to work. Rob

>>If all these anti-herp laws somehow had enough thought put into them to focus us into a group similar to the well respected falconry community I think it would be best for the people involved and the herps themselves. The problem with that though is that is asking the government to do what we should've done ourselves. I assume that the falconry hobby has a noble history and created it's position prior to the government needing to pass huge bans.
>>Rob, with your insight into falconry, what do you think could be parralelled into our herp community to set us into a similar position. Is the attitude towards breeding and importing everything in site, thus the easy availability of hots the main culprit? Is it hard to obtain a raptor? What else contributes to the numbers of yahoos out there with hots? (I assume that having a hawk is equally cool, thus if it were easy more people would have them impulsively.)
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

Most "lay" people do not see predatory birds as a threat to their family as they would a venomous snake.

I know people in both fields, and they are all very professional about what they do & who they talk to. I feel $$ hungry people selling hots is whats dragging us down.

Notice I am trying to come up with conclusions & answers rather than just saying screw it?
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Chad Bachman