Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi guys,
you know that bloodred crossed with normal one produce in first generation some offsprings that are similar to bloodred ( outcrossed bloodred ), and some that are not, but all the offsprings are assumed to be het bloodred.
there's something in bloodred that remind me something like a co-dominant trait, like hypo in boas and pastel in ball pythons, but everywhere I read that it's a normal recessive mutation, and like that follow the mendelian laws.
so my quesiton is:
what's the genetic difference between outcrossed bloodred and normal siblings?
do they will produce nicer offsprings than the normal siblings
what influence the evidence or not of that trait?

thanx
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1.0 Python molurus bivittatus albino(3.50m)
0.1 Python molurus bivittatus(6,10m)
1.1 Chondropython viridis (aru)
1.0 Chondropython viridis (lereh)
1.2 Lampropeltis californiae desert
1.1 Lampropeltis californiae albino striped
1.1 Lampropeltis californiae lavender
1.1 Lampropeltis californiae snow
2.2 Lampropeltis triangulum sinaloae
1.1 Lampropeltis triangulum nelsoni albino
1.1 Lampropeltis triangulum gaigeae
2.1 Lampropeltis triangulum hondurensis albino
0.1 Lampropeltis triangulum hondurensis het albino
1.1 Lampropeltis triangulum hondurensis het hypo
1.0 Lampropeltis triangulum hondurensis super hypo
1.1 Heterodon nasicus
0.1 Pituophis sayi albino
2.2 Pituophis sayi ivory ghost
1.1 Elaphe guttata blizzard
1.0 Elaphe guttata lavender
0.1 Elaphe guttata snow het opal
1.0 Elaphe guttata bloodred
1.0 Elaphe guttata hypo bloodred
1.0 Elaphe guttata albino striped
1.3 Elaphe guttata snow
1.0 Elaphe guttata ghost motley
0.1 Elaphe guttata albino
1.0 Elaphe guttata albino sunglow
0.1 Elaphe guttata miamy phase
1.1 Elaphe guttata candy cane
1.1 Elaphe o. obsoleta leucistic
2.2 Elaphe o. obsoleta het albino and white side
1.0 Elaphe o. obsoleta white side
1.2 Jungle corn albino
0.1 Jungle corn snow
1.0 Jungle corn albino striped
2.2 Gongylophis colubrinus loveridgei

Before I start with my answer, let me just say the following:

Almost no one will agree with everything I am about to say. Most people will agree with most of what I am about to say.
Almost no one will disagree with everything I am about to say.

That having been said, let me also point out that the reason the above three statements are true, is because, although there are some clear indications about what is taking place in relation to bloodreds, no one is 100% certain about all of the details. And the devil, as they say, is in the details.

So, here is my opinion, and you may accept or reject it as you see fit...

Bloodreds are somewhat difficult to understand because they are the product of two issues in one morph. They have the linebred coloration, which produces that deep red color for which the best examples of the morph are known, and they have a pattern mutation which is mendelian based. Several people have had great discussions, even arguments, about what this pattern mutation should be called, but I have not seen a name I like any better than the one I believe best describes it, so I use that one: episkiastic (epi-skee-AS-tick), "epi" for short.

The epi pattern mutation is, I believe, a codominant trait. It is passed from one generation to the next by way of mendelian genetic practices, but it has varying effects in the F1 generation, even though those offspring are merely heterozygous for the gene. You have to realize, though, that a codominant gene only has the "ability" to express itself in the heterozygous form, and the degree of expression can be from one extreme to the other. So, if 0% represents what a completely normal corn looks like, and 100% represents a pure bloodred, then the F1 offspring (the so-called "outcrossed bloods" can be anywhere from 1% - 99% in their appearance. That is why you can have "outcrossed" babies and "normal" babies in the same clutch. They are all het for the epi pattern mutation, but it is expressing itself in variable degrees throughout the individuals of the clutch.

Now, because the bloodred is an epi corn that has been line bred for that coloration, it is reasonable to assume that all of the babies will also be influenced to one degree or another by that line breeding. Just like if you breed a sunglow to a reverse okeetee, you will get all amel babies, but some of them will look more sunglow, some more reverse okeetee, and others more like normal amels. So, you get a clutch of animals that are all influenced by the bloodred line breeding, but some are much more red than others. That is to be expected.

So, how can you tell the difference between the "outcrossed" corns and their "normal" siblings? Genetically, there is no difference between tham at all. But those animals that are redder are those who were most heavily influenced by the line breeding, and one may be able to assume that those babies will produce the reddest bloodred offspring when crossed back to bloodred lines. However, all of them are het for episkiastism, and that gene either will or will not be passed on to the next generations according to the simple rules of mendelian genetics.

I hope that answers your question...let us know if it didn't in some way.
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Darin Chappell
Hillbilly Herps
PO Box 254
Rogersville, MO 65742

>You have to realize, though, that a codominant gene only has the "ability" to express itself in the heterozygous form,

This is the part that I disagree with.

A pair of genes is homozygous if the two members of the pair are the same. IOW, a gene pair is homozygous if it contains two identical normal genes or two identical mutant genes.

A pair of genes is heterozygous if the two members of the pair are not the same. IOW, a pair of genes is heterozygous if one gene is normal and the other is a mutant gene.

A mutant gene is recessive to the normal gene if the heterozygous individual, with a normal gene paired with a mutant gene, looks normal. Amelanistic is an example of a recessive mutant gene.

A mutant gene is dominant to the normal gene if the heterozygous individual, with a normal gene paired with a mutant gene, does not look normal but looks like the individual that is homozygous for the mutant gene.

A mutant gene is codominant to the normal gene if the heterozygous individual, with a normal gene paired with a mutant gene, does not look normal and does not look like the individual that is homozygous for the mutant gene. IOW, there are three phenotypes -- one for the homozygous normal individual, one for the homozygous mutant individual, and one for the heterozygous individual. In many cases, such as tiger in the reticulated python, the heterozygous individual is more or less intermediate in appearance between the normal and the homozygous mutant.

While people are saying that there is some visible effect of the mutant gene for (epi, blood red pattern, or whatever you want to call it) in a heterozygous individual, it still needs a lot of work to really get its status clarified (IMHO). The most I can say now is that in the older literature it is called a recessive, but it may be determined to be some form of dominant (dominant or codominant) with further study.

Paul Hollander

......
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Darin Chappell
Hillbilly Herps
PO Box 254
Rogersville, MO 65742

The belly pattern was just a seemingly simple recessive - all or nothing, produced from hets in two generations just like amels. But much later, after a few generations of a fair amount of inbreeding, I started seeing lots of gradations of belly checking instead of simple "yes" or "no" pattern. I even had some that I thought had no belly pattern, but when they produced some babies with full belly pattern, I looked more closely to find vestiges of checks right at the far edges of one of the parent's bellies. Seems to be than a simple all or nothing recessive after all, but I am not sure what.

thanks to all. anyway, it's a very interesting mutation to work with!
thanks again
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1.0 Python molurus bivittatus albino(3.50m)
0.1 Python molurus bivittatus(6,10m)
1.1 Chondropython viridis (aru)
1.0 Chondropython viridis (lereh)
1.2 Lampropeltis californiae desert
1.1 Lampropeltis californiae albino striped
1.1 Lampropeltis californiae lavender
1.1 Lampropeltis californiae snow
2.2 Lampropeltis triangulum sinaloae
1.1 Lampropeltis triangulum nelsoni albino
1.1 Lampropeltis triangulum gaigeae
2.1 Lampropeltis triangulum hondurensis albino
0.1 Lampropeltis triangulum hondurensis het albino
1.1 Lampropeltis triangulum hondurensis het hypo
1.0 Lampropeltis triangulum hondurensis super hypo
1.1 Heterodon nasicus
0.1 Pituophis sayi albino
2.2 Pituophis sayi ivory ghost
1.1 Elaphe guttata blizzard
1.0 Elaphe guttata lavender
0.1 Elaphe guttata snow het opal
1.0 Elaphe guttata bloodred
1.0 Elaphe guttata hypo bloodred
1.0 Elaphe guttata albino striped
1.3 Elaphe guttata snow
1.0 Elaphe guttata ghost motley
0.1 Elaphe guttata albino
1.0 Elaphe guttata albino sunglow
0.1 Elaphe guttata miamy phase
1.1 Elaphe guttata candy cane
1.1 Elaphe o. obsoleta leucistic
2.2 Elaphe o. obsoleta het albino and white side
1.0 Elaphe o. obsoleta white side
1.2 Jungle corn albino
0.1 Jungle corn snow
1.0 Jungle corn albino striped
2.2 Gongylophis colubrinus loveridgei