Reptile & Amphibian Forums

ok. so i have the 3 phantasticus that i hatched out a lil over a year ago. ive also got 3 eggs im waiting on at the moment, hoping all 3 turn out female but will be happy with anything that survives. ok, so say its another year or two down the road and im finally ready to breed for an f2 generation, but all i have are my f1 males and some WC females. if i were to cross my f1 males with the WC females, what would their offspring be considered? another f1? f2? f1.5? im really wanting to only breed CB with CB, but if it gets that far down the line and i still have no CB females, theres a good possiblity i will mix CB with WC, of course only after the WC passes any parasite tests. has anyone else run into this issue since CB uro's are rare to come across for the most part?

F2 means brother sister mating. You're cb mating to wc, I believe, would just be considered another F1 genration.

All three of your surviving cb phants from last year were males then? That's quite interesting if that's the case. Has anyone else seen/heard of a majority of male cb phantasticus survive?

I hope that all your new phants are female too!
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ryan
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Uroplatus sikorae

"F" is the generation notation. F2 doesnt mean the animals are siblings, or even related. It means they are 2nd generation captive bred, thats it. Can they be siblings- sure- but thats not what the "F" designations have to do with.

Where did you hear it was sibling matings?
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www.wildeyereptiles.com

Chameleons, geckos & invertebrates

OK, sorry I guess I am speaking from a genticists point of view.
here's a reference:

http://www.wncc.net/courses/dnash/genetics/mengen.htm
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ryan
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Uroplatus sikorae

Is this what you were getting that from?

"P= parental generation; F1 first filial generation; F2 second filial generation

F= filial -pertaining to or approptiate to a son or daughter
"
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www.wildeyereptiles.com

Chameleons, geckos & invertebrates

Hey Leah, I'm not trying to step on your toes here but to the best of my knowledge F2 means cross between F1 (F1 being from the same generation, same parents). The point of this cross, in genetics experiments, is to determine inheritance.

From kingsnake's own glossary (scroll down to filial):

http://www.kingsnake.com/articles/Glossary.html

and some mendelian genetics:

http://staff.jccc.net/pdecell/transgenetics/monohybrid1.html
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ryan
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Uroplatus sikorae

I see where you are coming from, but its out of context in this instance, we are not doing segregation experiments. We are tracking captive bred generations of animals. One of the references states it is the (glossary of) “Mendelian Genetics: Principle of Segregation“ – in order to segregate, you would have to have a related crossing. However, that’s not what we have going on in the herp hobby, or any other kind of lineage aside from reproduction of particular traits (line breeding). The term is used in its broader form as it is used in all of the other references, simply as a generational marker. There is no need for a term that specific, and honestly, if it was used that way, no one would buy F2’s or any successive generations for the fact that they were all inbred.

Its all relative to the subject matter in this case, a classroom vs. a captive breeding effort.
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www.wildeyereptiles.com

Chameleons, geckos & invertebrates

whomever came up with it first was right, and whomever used it second should have come up with their own letters to use or own code. i can't stand when people refer to the same thing with a same name meaning different things. for an example, " uros" are we speaking of uroplatus or uromastyx?

well around here, you should know what a uro is

i'm just saying in general when you see it referred to while searching the web. etc.

OK, I don't know herp terminology very well, I was a scientist long before a herper. I found this though, it seems like many people are confused with this terminology:

http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=703129,703531&key=2005

I am in agreement with paul...CB1, CB2, etc. To keep us who learned the terminology in the classroom less confused.
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ryan
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Uroplatus sikorae

Filial generations come about as the result of breeding two organisms of the P generation. The resulting offspring of a breeding of two P generation organisms are considered F1. A successive breeding of another group of P organisms would also result in an F1 generation as they are the first generation produced by these P organisms. If you were to breed one F1 from the frist group and one F1 from the second group the resulting offspring would indeed be F2.

In most cases when studying Mendelian genetics you are trying to determine wether a trait is dominant or recessive and by doing so you are studying F2 generations that are produced by related F1 organisms. This is done to decrease the number of alleles that you are dealing with in the experiment.

Jason
www.wildeyereptiles.com
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Wild Eye Reptiles www.wildeyereptiles.com

Captive Chameleon Bloodline Tracking Database www.chameleondatabase.com

n/p

i've still gotta take leah's side, all the stuff you're looking at is describing it in its simplest sense. as a genetics teacher, and theyll tell you that you can have two separate F1 generations from two different sets of parents, then use those unrelated offspring to produce an F2 generation.

ask* a genetics teacher

that typo almost makes it look like im trying to say im a genetics teacher, but im not.

yea, 4 eggs last year, one of the first two was empty, could never totally figure out why, the other survived. second clutch of two, both survived, and all of those make the 3 males i produced last year. one gave me high hopes of being female for a real long time, but eventually developed the bulge. really sad, it would have made a beautiful female. hopefully it will do me just as well!
i think i have a pic of the one im talking about somewhere...this is a pic of the 2 from the 2nd clutch. "lefty" is what i named him in the long run, with the more red blotched pattern. "clone" is the other one and, with the exception of the details of notching in the tail, looks totally like "rex" (unpictured), who was the one from the first clutch to hatch.

To answer the original question - it would be F1 still.
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www.wildeyereptiles.com

Chameleons, geckos & invertebrates

thanks leah. ill keep my fingers crossed for all females this time!

Those are really great looking!!
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ryan
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Uroplatus sikorae

thanks! i think so myself as well. unfortunately their dad died between the hatching of the two clutches, and the mother died a few months after hatching. fortunately, the babies ended up being really strong!

Absolutely gorgeous kids!
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PHEve / Eve

Mendel set up the P1 (parental), F1 (first filial), F2 (second filial) generations in reference to plants. Angiosperm plants, such as peas (Pisum sativum), conveniently have male and female sex organs and can "self" or self fertilize. So, the F2 generation in plants is the selfing of individuals from the F1 generation. Technically amniotes cannot self, and thus you should discontinue the use of these defining terms for your gecko generations. They are misleading and misinterpreted.

The F notation does not having anything to do with breeding brother and sister together etc etc. It simply is a way to keep tract of progeny.

So to answer your question, your F1 mated to a WC animal would produce an F1 generation. The F1 is the first generation of the pair that produced them.
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Uroplatus sikorae 1.1
Uroplatus henkeli
Ball python
Hogg Island Boa Constrictor
Several species of tarantula