Reptile & Amphibian Forums

np

Same snake... 100%, no contest.

People who say guyanas are darker or more purple, and suris have bigger peaks etc are rookies.
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recycle your pets

There is a difference, it is not a solid-line difference and the difference has been diluted by the free-exchange of specimens in the modern exporting practice..

Suriname snakes are (historically) better captives, have an average lower saddle-count and are generally (not positively) less colorful..

These debates go on and on one's opinion is going to be based on your experiences.. my experience is that they are closely related, some are practically identical.. but there are differences and breeding populations that display those differences is a worthwhile effort.

Have fun and be safe...
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Gus
A. Rentfro
RioBravoReptiles.com
www.riobravoreptiles.com

"Quality is not an accident. Perfectly healthy animals are a minimum requirement.. everything else is just salesmanship" gus

Just a follow up.. when somebody says "The True Red-Tail", does this apply to just Suri's or any BCC?
Thanks-
Matt Schubarth
Pet Nebula

Any BCC is a "true redtail."

I have always referd all BCC's as "True redtails" not just Suri's
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True Redtails

historically there are differences ? What differences ? Please don't say color , or pattern , everybody knows these snakes are HIGHLY variable.... variation in color , and pattern are present in every litter. Come on .. how about some scientific proof ? Funny how none of the books will make a distinction between these animals but the hobbiest who are breeding them for profit will. Nothing personal , but I just don't see any facts to backup the "THEORY" that they are in fact different.

There is no proof proving or disproving that Suri's and Guyanas are the same snake. I have no way of telling a suri from a guyana at all and I would like to meet someone that can and be 100% correct. Later

-Dylan Keays
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True Redtails

personally I think they should just be used as convenient labels for the morphologies that are associated with them - guyanan = peaked thin and/or thick saddles, darker pink or purple color - surinam = peaked and/or thin saddles, pink or orange color. I don't really care where they come from considering that the countries are so close together and that it's very difficult to be sure where your animals are from with animals being collected here and shipped out of there. While I respect the efforts of those who breed localities (eg essequebo (sp) guyanans and pokigron surinams) at this point, I wouldn't mind if breeders sold their "guyanans" and "surinams" from out of the same litter. For most people, I think that's what they're looking for when they want a "surinam" or "guyanan" - a certain look. Then again, I don't have any information regarding whether these snakes have different habits, behavior or something else that makes them unique that isn't obvious and it would be a shame if we diluted it with crossbreeding. So take my opinion with a grain of salt. But anyway, I think there are two distinct hobbies associated with boa constrictors - make that 3, all are cool in my opinion. The purists who are trying to preserve nature for future generations, the locality hobbyists who appreciate the traits of different localities and try to accentuate them through selective breeding, and the all out morph people who would breed an argentine boa to a leucistic garter snake if it were possible and looked cool - with shades in between. I guess I'm a locality guy and I just see these labels like brands. Would you like a Ford or Chevy - Surinam or Guyanan? As long as my Ford has Ford parts, it's what I asked for.

whoa - what was I talking about. Fords and Chevy's?!? Here's a couple of pics to make up for that rambling post.

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I almost agree completely. For me, other than the more superfical differences like color and pattern, I look for a unique headtype with Surinames.. that and what area they were exported from. But I would also have to admit that its more of an "institute" situation for me that anything else... these labels have been around for some time. With your 3 posted, I would have guessed incorrectly on the last two... would have said Brazilians! The "Train Tracks" threw me for a loop.
Later-
Matt Schubarth
Pet Nebula

PS- From the post below... the revolver is for my mouth, this topic is a real sob.

I have noticed Brazilians tend to have more pattern to their sides, as well as darker medalions.

A lot of animals sold in the U.S. as North Brazilians come from a mountain range in Surinam, thus the "mistakeable" identity.

I agree. The female that produced those last two had a pretty 'brazilian' look to her (see link). The father was a Sipperly, which showed up more in the male but I think the little female is going to be a lot like mom.
Basically boas surinam female

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Thank you Charles, that is exactly what I was wondering after reading Gus's post.

All due respect Gus, but please list what the exact traits you evaluate to discern one from another. I would love to know.
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recycle your pets

I was going to rant and rave with a long post " as usuall " but why waste time? If you got questions concerning this and other topics; " Take a trip down there and see for yourself! " Some of you guys spend hundreds and even thousands on snakes, why not take some of that money and take a trip down there? Take some temperature readings and humidity readings and pictures of boas from different areas and observe the sizes and weights of the animals. Do some good old common sense research and you will come back with a whole new attitude on this Hobby and see how alot of the crap you have heard over the years is false and yes of course, how some is true.Trust me, you will enjoy yourself and the beauty is beyond belief. Just make sure you dose up on some meds, you do not want Malaria or a dozen other wonderful illness you can get.......GOD BLESS........Johnson Herp.........P.S.......They are NO DIFFERENCE in those two localities

Many animals do not have verifiable origins, in fact MOST do not. Personally this is why I have yet to buy many of the "locales" I want. There is a difference between Surinam and Guyanan boas, just as there is between boas from the same countries. Some issolated populations evolve differently. Sometimes this difference is VERY slight. However, most who say there is NO DIFFERENCE, are not looking at one animal from a particualr city in Guyana and compareing to another particular animal from a certain region in Surinam. They are usually going buy what they were told, a sales pitch.

BTW, here is one of my VERIFIABLE locales, a Western Costa Rican Imperator. And YES there is a VISUAL, among other, difference between WESTERN and EASTERN.

I don't mean to offend anyone, and Madison Records, good reccomendation.

you have no facts, because there are none. What facts do you base your conclusion on ? Let's hear some real facts , PLEASE!

I have not worked with BCC. Or kept them. I have however read a lot of information, and the physical descriptions of each. I am waiting for a reply to use a picture of an Eastern Costa Rican Imperator to show difference. an example that when ORIGIN is known, DIFFERENCES are VISABLE.

pretend for a momment that color and pattern don't exist. What differences do you see between these snakes?

First of all, you can't ignore PHENOTYPICAL DIFFERENCES. Sometimes this IS the EVOLUTIONARY difference. And a valid one, not of one animal but of an ENTIRE population. Here I can use the Costa Rican synonym.

I remember differences in temperment (natural behavior), and head structure. Both of which Gus could probably define better. Being someone who has worked with each, I have NOT. I am simply stateing that they are two different boas.

No one argues the variance between Pulcalpa and Iquitos Peruvian BCC, so why Guyanan Vs Surinam.

As was said, if any of us were to venture to the two countries we would see the evidence. And not be confused by animals with shady backrounds.

a

In my opinion, regardless of whether there are scientific differences or not, it seems obvious that "Surinams" are more valuable to the general herpetoculture than "Guyanans". Surinams tend to move faster and at higher prices. I know of one well-known Bcc vendor who advertised a beautiful sub-adult Guyanan for weeks without a buyer...he then waited a month and posted her as a Surinam, and she was gone in a day. Maybe it was chance, but this seems to play out on a regular basis.

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There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Rom 8:1

I'm probably going to be wrong but the picture isn't great(distance) so that'll be my excuse. Roe, your boa pictured is a Suriname?
Thanks-
Matt Schubarth
Pet Nebula

I also purchased her brother, who has very N. Brazilian markings. One reason I like Bcc is the color/pattern variation.

All the best-
Jim

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There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Rom 8:1