Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi all,

I just finished reading Phillipe de Vosjoli's book, "The Art of Keeping Snakes." The book was written with a clear emphasis on naturalistic enclosures that go all-out: bioactive substrates that break down fecal matter on their own, live plants, and natural materials such as wood, cork, and rock. Overall, the techniques he presented seemed to be akin to those used in dart frog enclosures, although running slightly behind-the-times (for instance, no mention of false floor designs or eggcrate drainage).

After reading it, I expected that much of the material within is highly controversial in the herp community, particulary his strong opposition to what he calls "LAM" setups - cages with wood bedding, a simple hide, and water bowl. So, I did a few searches for discussions here on Kingsnake regarding the book and de Vosjoli's methods. To my surprise, I came up with nothing! So, does anyone here have an opinion on the material discussed in his book, or is it generally unpopular? It looks that the first printing was in 2004, so perhaps it hasn't been widely circulated.

Personally, I agree with the philosophy and intent of the author: that snakes kept in naturalistic vivaria are likely to be more stimulated and less "bored" than those kept in rack systems. Even with an extensive background in aquaria, however (which is built around the principle of nitrifying bacteria), I find it difficult to accept that fecal matter can simply be spot-cleaned, while the rest is allowed to mix into the substrate for bacteria to break down. Still, there's nothing that logically goes against that assumption, except for the widespread practice of keeping cages 100% sterile. I'd like to accept what the book has to offer because it seems revolutionary and rings well with me, but I can't get past the "cleanliness" factor.

So, does anyone have any thoughts? I've just been musing over the methods presented in the book, and really don't have a strong opinion either way. I'm looking forward to hopefully starting some interesting discussion.

Cross-posted in a few other forums as well.
-----
::i believe in joy > http://www.winds.org/nekomi/hope.html

::my homepage > http://www.winds.org/nekomi

My Growing Zoo:

1.0 Husband (Byron) ^_^
0.1 black cat (Shade)
0.1 Brazilian Rainbow Boa (Zia)
1.2 Cockatoo cichlids (A. cacatuoides yellow-gold)
1.1 WC Cockatoo cichlids (A. cacatuoides blue Peru)
3.3 Pygmy corydoras (C. pygmaeus)
2.0 Endlers' Livebearers (P. sp. Endlers)

I'd be interested in monitoring the other threads if you could list them here. Thanks.

I have not read this book but have read and enjoyed much of Phillipe's other work. I do believe I'll track it down.

I have the same basic concerns as you regarding the cleanliness factor. However, since snakes generally produce infrequent and large amounts of deficate it seems possible that enough could be removed via spot cleaning to allow biological break down of what remains.

On the other hand, with lizards and amphibians these techniques have been most successful with species that do well with very high moisture content in their cages. Very few snakes can tolerate this type of moisture in captivity. Especially those popular in herpetoculture.

Even a Green Tree Python can't tolerate the type of humidity seen in these bioactive terrariums.

>>Personally, I agree with the philosophy and intent of the author: that snakes kept in naturalistic vivaria are likely to be more stimulated and less "bored" than those kept in rack systems.

I believe this issue is much more complex than boredom. For whatever reason snakes often seem to do better in smaller, tighter cages. There are countless anecdotes of snakes going off feed when moved from large, naturalistic vivaria and into a smaller LAM setup (hope I remember that acronym correctly).

Granted some of this is from the zoo field where snakes have their cages pounded on by thousands of kids per day, etc. No surprise they start eating better when moved into a rubbermaid box behind the scenes.

These anedotes are also biased by private keepers who setup large cages but don't provide the right type of hides or the right type of heating elements for the larger space. As anyone who frequents these forums knows those are two issues I have with private herpetoculture.

Howver, what I find most interesting is the anecdotes of Europeans who are quite advanced compared to us in the use of naturalistic vivaria. As you may know they are extremely meticulous about setting up large, planted cages with numerous small hides for their snakes.

Even they have noted that the snakes are more defensive and less likely to feed in these larger cages. Ironically, they see that as indicative of a more natural behavior and a sign that naturalistic vivaria work.

Americans, OTOH, would seem to interpet this as a sign that the snake is stressed and not doing well.

Personally I don't believe that either side has enough information or understanding to support their paradigm.

I can tell you, though, that when it comes to Gonyosoma (the only genus I keep) that I know of several keepers who have had to move their snakes from larger, decorated cages into smaller cages. It was the only way they could get them to feed.

Interesting thread. I remain firmly planted on the fence, so to speak.
-----
Current snakes:

0.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Silver/Yellow)

3.3 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Green)

2.1 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black)

3.3 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black & Tan)

I posted the message in the Snakes: General forum, and thought about a few others, but I was worried the posts might get deleted for spamming.

Anyway, I find what you mentioned about the European keepers very interesting. So far, I've found it extremely difficult to find any information or websites pertaining to their methods, so I admit that I know very little about how they keep snakes. However, I find their perspective on natural behavior vs. stress interesting. I think I would be more inclined to believe that this is indicitive of a stressed snake, but then again, has that just because I've been conditioned to think like an American keeper? I agree that on the whole, the global herpetological community still has a long way to go to understanding snakes' behavior fully.

I do think that the European snakes' defensiveness could be attributed to other factors beside the fact that they are in a naturalistic vivarium. For instance, a quote from de Vosjoli's book jumps out at me right away: "The primary reward for owning snakes is not interactive but is instead derived from observing them in beautiful, carefully-designed displays, somewhat like tropical fish" (de Vosjoli, p15).

Although I think this statement is debateable at best, it may account for some of the differences in behavior between the European snakes in vivaria and the American ones in LAM setups. If most keepers overseas hold to the same mindset as de Vosjoli, most likely they are not handling their snakes, which would leave them more or less untamed and more defensive. However, this still doesn't explain the problem of going off-feed and is just a broad generalization.

I do think that the cage dimensions de Vosjoli mentions are a bit too large, even though I personally tend to err on the side of too much space vs. too little. He says that for a proper naturalistic setup, the cage perimeter must be 2-3 times the length of the adult snake. Wow! So when my rainbow boa is an adult, by this method, she will need an enclosure at least 50" long x 50" wide... height notwithstanding. How many people, besides zoos, could actually provide this for just one animal? In theory it sounds good, but I do think that such a large space would stress the animal over time unless it was very densely covered. Just thoughts.

Yes, I constantly thought back to the dart frog keepers while reading his book. Essentially, the amphibian crowd HAVE been doing this same thing for years - because frogs and small lizards put out such a small amount of waste, it is easy for nitrifying bacteria and plant roots to absorb it and break it down. Basically, by removing the majority of the fecal matter and spreading it evenly throughout a large area, you reduce the waste to an amount comparable to a tank full of dart frogs or day geckos. Like he mentions, when spreading waste across a large area like this (via stirring the substrate), the "good" bacteria are able to easily outnumber and outcompete any pathogens. I would think that this makes for a very clean setup despite first appearances. Planted freshwater aquaria paralell his thoughts very closely, and I believe cross-research into this field would yield even more information.

About the humidity... de Vosjoli stresses in his book the need for adequate ventilation in the enclosure. I think this would make for frequent misting, but with a moist substrate, perhaps this is not the case.

Here is another idea along the same lines. In the book, he emphasizes vertical temperature gradients, created by stacking rocks/wood/etc., as opposed to horizontal ones. This is because when using 3-4 inches of substrate, UTH's aren't going to do you any good, so lights are necessary for heating. He seems to apply this "vertical gradient" method to humidity as well - insinuating that reptiles need to... let's see if I can coin a new term here... hygroregulate as well as thermoregulate. He never comes right out and says this, but I think it is easily inferred.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to other thoughts on the topic. His book is definitely worth a read not only for the information inside, but also for the fantastic photography, particularly of his banded water snakes. Very nice stuff.
-----
::i believe in joy > http://www.winds.org/nekomi/hope.html

::my homepage > http://www.winds.org/nekomi

My Growing Zoo:

1.0 Husband (Byron) ^_^
0.1 black cat (Shade)
0.1 Brazilian Rainbow Boa (Zia)
1.2 Cockatoo cichlids (A. cacatuoides yellow-gold)
1.1 WC Cockatoo cichlids (A. cacatuoides blue Peru)
3.3 Pygmy corydoras (C. pygmaeus)
2.0 Endlers' Livebearers (P. sp. Endlers)

Thanks for the heads up on the book. I have read a few of his others and he has some good insight on a lot of things. He has in his general husbandry books talked mostly about LAM enclosures so I think he may have been trying to reach out to the naturalistic herpers out there.

I keep and maintain all my snakes in very natural environments indigenous to the areas they would be if in the wild. (all are cbb). I have not encountered any bacterial or fungal issues and my most humid enclosure is for my Blood Python who would in the wild be in the indonesian swamps. I do thorough spot cleaning of any solid matter and any clumping of liquid and have found nothing in the way of odor or bacterial blooms.(I use a microscope for fecal checks and check the substrates also). I have found that natural cover has added to what appears to be a more native hunting instinct in my snakes where as when I had LAM enclosures they would just strike and eat, sometimes not even bothering to constrict (p/k food only here).

Where did you find it and how much did the book cost??

Thanks for the post
Chris
-----
Chris, my wife Mary
a dog, two cats, two birds, four snakes
oh and three kids

Sorry, I missed your reply for awhile!

I got the book from Amazon.com for $16.95. I've seen it for similar prices at some local pet stores around my area.

About his previous books being LAM-oriented... much of what he said in this book seems to indicate that his herpkeeping methods seem to be changing, rather than trying to appeal to a certain group. He mentions at the end of the book that his findings completely changed his approach to herpetoculture.

Hope that helps!!
-----
::i believe in joy > http://www.winds.org/nekomi/hope.html

::my homepage > http://www.winds.org/nekomi

My Growing Zoo:

1.0 Husband (Byron) ^_^
0.1 black cat (Shade)
0.1 Brazilian Rainbow Boa (Zia)
1.2 Cockatoo cichlids (A. cacatuoides yellow-gold)
1.1 WC Cockatoo cichlids (A. cacatuoides blue Peru)
3.3 Pygmy corydoras (C. pygmaeus)
2.0 Endlers' Livebearers (P. sp. Endlers)