Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi all,

I just finished reading Phillipe de Vosjoli's book, "The Art of Keeping Snakes." The book was written with a clear emphasis on naturalistic enclosures that go all-out: bioactive substrates that break down fecal matter on their own, live plants, and natural materials such as wood, cork, and rock. Overall, the techniques he presented seemed to be akin to those used in dart frog enclosures, although running slightly behind-the-times (for instance, no mention of false floor designs or eggcrate drainage).

After reading it, I expected that much of the material within is highly controversial in the herp community, particulary his strong opposition to what he calls "LAM" setups - cages with wood bedding, a simple hide, and water bowl. So, I did a few searches for discussions here on Kingsnake regarding the book and de Vosjoli's methods. To my surprise, I came up with nothing! So, does anyone here have an opinion on the material discussed in his book, or is it generally unpopular? It looks that the first printing was in 2004, so perhaps it hasn't been widely circulated.

Personally, I agree with the philosophy and intent of the author: that snakes kept in naturalistic vivaria are likely to be more stimulated and less "bored" than those kept in rack systems. Even with an extensive background in aquaria, however (which is built around the principle of nitrifying bacteria), I find it difficult to accept that fecal matter can simply be spot-cleaned, while the rest is allowed to mix into the substrate for bacteria to break down. Still, there's nothing that logically goes against that assumption, except for the widespread practice of keeping cages 100% sterile. I'd like to accept what the book has to offer because it seems revolutionary and rings well with me, but I can't get past the "cleanliness" factor.

So, does anyone have any thoughts? I've just been musing over the methods presented in the book, and really don't have a strong opinion either way. I'm looking forward to hopefully starting some interesting discussion.

Cross-posted in a few other forums as well.
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::i believe in joy > http://www.winds.org/nekomi/hope.html

::my homepage > http://www.winds.org/nekomi

My Growing Zoo:

1.0 Husband (Byron) ^_^
0.1 black cat (Shade)
0.1 Brazilian Rainbow Boa (Zia)
1.2 Cockatoo cichlids (A. cacatuoides yellow-gold)
1.1 WC Cockatoo cichlids (A. cacatuoides blue Peru)
3.3 Pygmy corydoras (C. pygmaeus)
2.0 Endlers' Livebearers (P. sp. Endlers)

Hi, I read it through as well, thought it fascinating. The only catch is, I'm a novice, and you're the only person I know of who has also read it! Ironic, eh?
He mentions the eggcrate thing on pg 54 for increased drainage, but just so I know, what is the (what's it called?) hidden floor thing?
I like a lot of what he says, but I don't have the guts to try out the bioactive substrate, live plants etc with my first animal. Basically I don't know how to best hook up the lights, and am scared of the snake eating substrate and getting digestive troubles, etc.
It sounds like it would be insanely controversial, but I haven't heard any controversy. I doubt many people know about it.
It does make sense that if the vast majority of the fecal matter is removed, the little traces would just be finished off by bacteria. The bacteria factor doesn't really bother me, as being exposed to benign bacteria would just give snakes more disease resistance. There is the fact that we humans have about 2 pounds of E Coli bacteria in our digestive tract and we probably couldn't live without it. (old fact from Bio 101).
I can imagine the system being very poor for mass breeders who need to keep track of snakes coming in and out all the time. But for an individual with just a few critters, past quarantine and healthy, it'd be a real possibility.
Feedback, anyone?
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0.2 chickens (Falcon & Condor)
0.2 dog mutts (half ownership, only mine when they misbehave, Lucy & Amy)
0.1 Halflinger horse (Crissy)
0.0 Arizona Mountain Kingsnake (coming soon)
1.1 parents
Still searching for 1.0 WC human

Ditto here about being a novice! I just got my first snake on Saturday (a rainbow boa), and like you, I don't have the nerve to try his methods out.

I know plenty about the care of live plants (from researching dart frogs and keeping planted aquariums) and I don't think the lighting would be a problem, but mostly it's the heating vs. humidity balance that worries me. Since UTH's aren't recommended in the book except as substrate warming mechanisms (probably because the substrate is too deep for them to be effective), incandescent lights have to be used, which means the humidity level invariably drops. And if you know much about rainbows, they require very high humidity (80%) and low temps (73-81). I think this would be difficult to achieve using just incandescent lights as heating. In addition, he mentions that well-sealed cages without much ventilation aren't good for bioactivity, either, and that's what I'm doing to seal in humidity for my rainbow. I think that with a LOT of experimenting, money, and time, it could be done, but I wonder, is it really worth it?

Personally, I'm all for naturalistic enclosures. I have been tempted by the sweater-box method of keeping snakes, but have always opted out in the end. I feel that it's better for me to practice some self-discipline and only get new animals as space allows - if I can't afford the time/space/money to set up a large display for the snake as an adult, I will not buy the snake. That's controversial in itself, for sure, but I should mention that I really don't have a problem with people keeping in Sterilites, either. Just stating a personal preference and self-imposed rule.

So anyway, my boa's cage right now has a natural-looking substr
ate (coco fiber/Bed-a-Beast), quality silk and plastic plants, a large network of climbing branches, and resin hides. But in de Vosjoli's opinion, this isn't natural enough - it better be real plants all the way, cork bark and wood, and bioactive! I think it's a great idea. But I wonder if the same benefits for the snake aren't achieved with a setup like mine, that mimics nature, but is not entirely natural.

I think that when it's time to move my BRB into a larger adult display, I will reread his book and strongly consider the methods he shares. But right now, especially for a smaller enclosure like mine, I think that the techniques prove to be difficult to utilize.

Any more thoughts? I'm so glad you responded, I wasn't really expecting anyone to reply!!
-----
::i believe in joy > http://www.winds.org/nekomi/hope.html

::my homepage > http://www.winds.org/nekomi

My Growing Zoo:

1.0 Husband (Byron) ^_^
0.1 black cat (Shade)
0.1 Brazilian Rainbow Boa (Zia)
1.2 Cockatoo cichlids (A. cacatuoides yellow-gold)
1.1 WC Cockatoo cichlids (A. cacatuoides blue Peru)
3.3 Pygmy corydoras (C. pygmaeus)
2.0 Endlers' Livebearers (P. sp. Endlers)

>>I know plenty about the care of live plants (from researching dart frogs and keeping planted aquariums) and I don't think the lighting would be a problem, but mostly it's the heating vs. humidity balance that worries me.

Not a big deal at all. Numerous species with high humidity requirements also require high ventilation. Since you have a plant background I'm sure you're aware this also applies to horticulture. Orchids, bromeliads all do best with high humidity and high ventilation.

If you absolutely have to use a low ventilation cage then Radiant Heat Panels can be used to heat a cage from above. These really are the ideal way to heat reptile cages IMO. Some lizards are better off with CHE's or MVB's but for about everything else RHP's are the ultimate.

Europeans keep Rainbow boas and other high humidity species in cages with extraordinary amounts of ventilation. Some are darn near 100% screen.

They just work hard to keep micro-habitats within the cage, mist more frequently, and/or keep room humidity high.

As I've already mentioned, Europeans have significantly different approaches towards keeping snakes. They are largely unimpressed with how us Americans do it.
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Current snakes:

0.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Silver/Yellow)

3.3 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Green)

2.1 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black)

3.3 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black & Tan)

Thanks for the reply!

Interesting what you mentioned about the micro-habitats. I just posted a message with a small discussion about this very thing in relation to humidity down below ("Reposted from cage forum as well".)

Anyway, I think I'll be doing a bit of experimenting in the future with the humidity vs. ventilation... I've actually never kept terrestrial exotic plants, only aquatic ones, so I have no first-hand experience but only a lot of "book knowledge".
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::i believe in joy > http://www.winds.org/nekomi/hope.html

::my homepage > http://www.winds.org/nekomi

My Growing Zoo:

1.0 Husband (Byron) ^_^
0.1 black cat (Shade)
0.1 Brazilian Rainbow Boa (Zia)
1.2 Cockatoo cichlids (A. cacatuoides yellow-gold)
1.1 WC Cockatoo cichlids (A. cacatuoides blue Peru)
3.3 Pygmy corydoras (C. pygmaeus)
2.0 Endlers' Livebearers (P. sp. Endlers)

I realized that I forgot to answer your question about the false floor.

I didn't hear about false floors until I started looking into dart frogs, where it is a common term. It's really hard to explain unless you're exposed to it constantly, whereby you kinda learn it by osmosis (like I did). Basically, you elevate the substrate about an inch off the cage floor using eggcrate, set on top of cut lengths of PVC pipe. Then, when you mist or water plants, the water drips harmlessly through the substrate and down into the empty area below, where it collects and is circulated by a pump, which usually feeds a waterfall or stream flowing through the cage. It's a great way to increase humidity, and keeps the substrate moist without being overly wet. It's probably the best way to keep bromeliad plants, because their roots are prone to oversaturating with water. This way, they get the correct dampness all the time.

I posted a message below in this forum trying to get some discussion going for the viability of false bottom systems with snakes, since they seem so prone to belly rot from substrates that are too wet. No replies though! Ah well..
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::i believe in joy > http://www.winds.org/nekomi/hope.html

::my homepage > http://www.winds.org/nekomi

My Growing Zoo:

1.0 Husband (Byron) ^_^
0.1 black cat (Shade)
0.1 Brazilian Rainbow Boa (Zia)
1.2 Cockatoo cichlids (A. cacatuoides yellow-gold)
1.1 WC Cockatoo cichlids (A. cacatuoides blue Peru)
3.3 Pygmy corydoras (C. pygmaeus)
2.0 Endlers' Livebearers (P. sp. Endlers)

No controversy, these principles have been in practic for the last ten years!

and I'm sure it works. It just doesn't scale very well to large snakes, or large numbers of snakes.

I agree, its good for the "snake keeper" someone who keeps or breeds a few snakes, but breeders who handle a large number of snakes or those interested mainly in genetics, who will also keep a large group, will not find these methods accomidating. However even they can benefit from having a couple such setups for difficult to aclimate species.

Hi all,

I have not read the book, however I have read your postings and these are just my thoughts on the matter. I hope this will help.

I think the main concern here is that you must take your snake's natural habitat and temp/humidity requirements into consideration. Sankes which require high temperatures and humidity levels would probably benefit the most in these type of vivariums.
Also, Re: the bacterial concerns:
Reptiles have the bacterial spp. Edwarsiella as part of their normal intestinal flora. Spot cleaning should be sufficient in these environments.

Erin, AHT,RVT

I'm not sure how well the system would work however.
Having a bio-active subtrate for dart frogs is one thing, but for a larger animal with greater waste deposit?

I'd guess you'd need a much larger enclosure than normal to accomodate more waste break-down.

For example, I use a vary basic dart frog set up (no plants or hides, wood, etc)...just the clay marble bottom and bed a beast "dirt" on top...for my albino pac man frog. this is just for moisture issues. Makes it a cinch to be certain the subtrate and the tank is humid enough for him.
While a 10 gallon tank can work pretty good for the dart frogs, it won't work as well for the pacman simply because he just has a higher waste output. So I just spotclean as normal and completely change the bedding every now and then.

Now think of the difference between a pacman frog and a snake. I have an adult mexican black king who's output is just astounding. I'd imagine other larger snakes, especially large boas and the like, would have an especially large movement.

The wetland filter that I built to support three adult waterdragons holds about twenty gallons of water, ten gallons of bioactive material and about twenty plants. if your not familiar with waterdragons they generally only deficate in the water so this filter has handled all their waste for six years without any maintenance accept to top off the water once a week.

...But a water filter system is pretty different from a natural "biomass" in the bottom of a snake enclosure.

A wetland filter, consist of pool that spills over onto a land area that is heavily planted and suspend above a second layer of biomaterial like lava rocks or biobeads. The layers are separated by plastic egg crating. the water is pumped back up into the pond from the second layer. As the water Drips down through the first layer it acts as wetdry removing amonia, and nitrites directly into the air. in the second layer the bio material support the nitrosoma bacteria that breaks down the remainder. The Plants provide habitat as well additional oxygen to the bacteria through the roots. the plants also abosorb metals, toxins, and nitrates the final biproduct of the nitrogen cycle. Minnows, crayfish, and fiddler crabs can be added to the pond to deal with solid waste. When using these filters for snakes I make it half the size of the cage so that the snakes have access to complete dry land. So far the snakes I have kept have naturally deficated on this side of the cage usually in the pond.

Hmmm...interesting. I might want to try that then...
Any links or info you could give out on how to build such a thing?

Also, what kind of humidity do you get in the cage?

I use reptariums, so no humidty build up otherwise there would be. I am going to put together a how to website soon, I'll let everyone know when its ready.

Well, de Vosjoli doesn't recommend leaving the entire fecal mass inside the cage to decompose. His method is to remove the solid waste with a scoop, then stir whatever is remaining into a large area of substrate. Theoretically, this creates a very small amount of waste spread evenly across an area containing a large amount of beneficial bacteria, which I'd assume is easily broken down at that point.

Still, it all is very new and revolutionary to me. I think that personal first-hand experimenting is in order so that I can get a better handle on it all.
-----
::i believe in joy > http://www.winds.org/nekomi/hope.html

::my homepage > http://www.winds.org/nekomi

My Growing Zoo:

1.0 Husband (Byron) ^_^
0.1 black cat (Shade)
0.1 Brazilian Rainbow Boa (Zia)
1.2 Cockatoo cichlids (A. cacatuoides yellow-gold)
1.1 WC Cockatoo cichlids (A. cacatuoides blue Peru)
3.3 Pygmy corydoras (C. pygmaeus)
2.0 Endlers' Livebearers (P. sp. Endlers)

Well I can't imagine that would help curb parasites. In the wild of course, an animal wouldn't be exposed to a concentrated area of parasites since they roam a large area.

I'd think even having a bipdegrability built in, you'd still have large concentrations on parasites.
Granted we all know to buy CB animals, but even then they can still be exposed which is why we treat our animals regularly.

Maybe some of the large parasites would be controlled by the spot cleaning, but I'm sure there'd still be flagellates and eggs of various organisms left behind.

I'd be interested in monitoring the other threads if you could list them here. Thanks.

I have not read this book but have read and enjoyed much of Phillipe's other work. I do believe I'll track it down.

I have the same basic concerns as you regarding the cleanliness factor. However, since snakes generally produce infrequent and large amounts of deficate it seems possible that enough could be removed via spot cleaning to allow biological break down of what remains.

On the other hand, with lizards and amphibians these techniques have been most successful with species that do well with very high moisture content in their cages. Very few snakes can tolerate this type of moisture in captivity. Especially those popular in herpetoculture.

Even a Green Tree Python can't tolerate the type of humidity seen in these bioactive terrariums.

>>Personally, I agree with the philosophy and intent of the author: that snakes kept in naturalistic vivaria are likely to be more stimulated and less "bored" than those kept in rack systems.

I believe this issue is much more complex than boredom. For whatever reason snakes often seem to do better in smaller, tighter cages. There are countless anecdotes of snakes going off feed when moved from large, naturalistic vivaria and into a smaller LAM setup (hope I remember that acronym correctly).

Granted some of this is from the zoo field where snakes have their cages pounded on by thousands of kids per day, etc. No surprise they start eating better when moved into a rubbermaid box behind the scenes.

These anedotes are also biased by private keepers who setup large cages but don't provide the right type of hides or the right type of heating elements for the larger space. As anyone who frequents these forums knows those are two issues I have with private herpetoculture.

Howver, what I find most interesting is the anecdotes of Europeans who are quite advanced compared to us in the use of naturalistic vivaria. As you may know they are extremely meticulous about setting up large, planted cages with numerous small hides for their snakes.

Even they have noted that the snakes are more defensive and less likely to feed in these larger cages. Ironically, they see that as indicative of a more natural behavior and a sign that naturalistic vivaria work.

Americans, OTOH, would seem to interpet this as a sign that the snake is stressed and not doing well.

Personally I don't believe that either side has enough information or understanding to support their paradigm.

I can tell you, though, that when it comes to Gonyosoma (the only genus I keep) that I know of several keepers who have had to move their snakes from larger, decorated cages into smaller cages. It was the only way they could get them to feed.

Interesting thread. I remain firmly planted on the fence, so to speak.
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Current snakes:

0.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Silver/Yellow)

3.3 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Green)

2.1 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black)

3.3 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black & Tan)

I have keeped jeweled racers in a natural setup using wetland filters to deal with the waste quite successfully. The key is airflow. I used a 270 gallon reptarium to house two pair. They did hide more, but it didn't effect their eating and breeding was increased, my females layed three clutches a year.

I'm glad to hear that. Certainly if there is a species worth putting in a 270 gallon cage it would be Drymobious spp.

Awesome snakes.
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Current snakes:

0.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Silver/Yellow)

3.3 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Green)

2.1 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black)

3.3 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black & Tan)

I posted the message in the Snakes: General forum, and thought about a few others, but I was worried the posts might get deleted for spamming.

Anyway, I find what you mentioned about the European keepers very interesting. So far, I've found it extremely difficult to find any information or websites pertaining to their methods, so I admit that I know very little about how they keep snakes. However, I find their perspective on natural behavior vs. stress interesting. I think I would be more inclined to believe that this is indicitive of a stressed snake, but then again, has that just because I've been conditioned to think like an American keeper? I agree that on the whole, the global herpetological community still has a long way to go to understanding snakes' behavior fully.

I do think that the European snakes' defensiveness could be attributed to other factors beside the fact that they are in a naturalistic vivarium. For instance, a quote from de Vosjoli's book jumps out at me right away: "The primary reward for owning snakes is not interactive but is instead derived from observing them in beautiful, carefully-designed displays, somewhat like tropical fish" (de Vosjoli, p15).

Although I think this statement is debateable at best, it may account for some of the differences in behavior between the European snakes in vivaria and the American ones in LAM setups. If most keepers overseas hold to the same mindset as de Vosjoli, most likely they are not handling their snakes, which would leave them more or less untamed and more defensive. However, this still doesn't explain the problem of going off-feed and is just a broad generalization.

I do think that the cage dimensions de Vosjoli mentions are a bit too large, even though I personally tend to err on the side of too much space vs. too little. He says that for a proper naturalistic setup, the cage perimeter must be 2-3 times the length of the adult snake. Wow! So when my rainbow boa is an adult, by this method, she will need an enclosure at least 50" long x 50" wide... height notwithstanding. How many people, besides zoos, could actually provide this for just one animal? In theory it sounds good, but I do think that such a large space would stress the animal over time unless it was very densely covered. Just thoughts.

Yes, I constantly thought back to the dart frog keepers while reading his book. Essentially, the amphibian crowd HAVE been doing this same thing for years - because frogs and small lizards put out such a small amount of waste, it is easy for nitrifying bacteria and plant roots to absorb it and break it down. Basically, by removing the majority of the fecal matter and spreading it evenly throughout a large area, you reduce the waste to an amount comparable to a tank full of dart frogs or day geckos. Like he mentions, when spreading waste across a large area like this (via stirring the substrate), the "good" bacteria are able to easily outnumber and outcompete any pathogens. I would think that this makes for a very clean setup despite first appearances. Planted freshwater aquaria paralell his thoughts very closely, and I believe cross-research into this field would yield even more information.

About the humidity... de Vosjoli stresses in his book the need for adequate ventilation in the enclosure. I think this would make for frequent misting, but with a moist substrate, perhaps this is not the case.

Here is another idea along the same lines. In the book, he emphasizes vertical temperature gradients, created by stacking rocks/wood/etc., as opposed to horizontal ones. This is because when using 3-4 inches of substrate, UTH's aren't going to do you any good, so lights are necessary for heating. He seems to apply this "vertical gradient" method to humidity as well - insinuating that reptiles need to... let's see if I can coin a new term here... hygroregulate as well as thermoregulate. He never comes right out and says this, but I think it is easily inferred.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to other thoughts on the topic. His book is definitely worth a read not only for the information inside, but also for the fantastic photography, particularly of his banded water snakes. Very nice stuff.
-----
::i believe in joy > http://www.winds.org/nekomi/hope.html

::my homepage > http://www.winds.org/nekomi

My Growing Zoo:

1.0 Husband (Byron) ^_^
0.1 black cat (Shade)
0.1 Brazilian Rainbow Boa (Zia)
1.2 Cockatoo cichlids (A. cacatuoides yellow-gold)
1.1 WC Cockatoo cichlids (A. cacatuoides blue Peru)
3.3 Pygmy corydoras (C. pygmaeus)
2.0 Endlers' Livebearers (P. sp. Endlers)

I have kept a wetland filter running to support my water dragons for 6 years and have done nothing but add water to it. A wetland filter if you are not familiar with it, is like a wetdry that employs plants and there roots to further remove toxins, metals, and nitrates from the water as well as supply oxygen for bateria. I agree whole heartedly with the natural approach the days of newspaper and shoe boxing are long past.

Nekomi,

I'll have to get my hands on that book - I wasn't aware Phillipe had written anything recently - he's kind of been off the radar for a while. Anyway, if you enjoyed reading that and want to learn some more in regards to naturalistic enclosures vs. the more sterile U.S. way of doing things, check out this book: 'Health and Welfare of Captive Reptiles' Edited by: Clifford Warwick, Fredric L. Frye and James B. Murphy - specifically you'll want to read chapter 5: Naturalistic versus clinical environments in husbandry and research. You may have to go to a university library or request it through an interlibrary loan as it's a bit of an obscure book - I own my own copy.

Now, since you have some apprehensions about this method/style of herp-keeping, I'll try to address some of those questions from my own experience using some of the same techniques as DeVosjoli has been promoting for years.

>After reading it, I expected that much of the material within is highly controversial in the herp community, particulary his strong opposition to what he calls "LAM" setups - cages with wood bedding, a simple hide, and water bowl.

The book I suggested you read mentions some of the same issues in regards to stimulating natural behaviors, etc. However, in my experience - both with LAM setups, and bioactive as he mentions - I've had animals go both ways. My lizards have experienced no eating or behavioral issues pretty much regardless of the setup, although the more natural [ie. more and better hides, mutliple levels to climb on, etc.], they more natural they behave, tending to exhibit less 'stereotypic' behaviors - ie. pacing, snout rubbing, etc. I've also had some snakes that seemed to do better when confined in smaller LAM setups vs. larger more natural setups. I've also had some snakes that seemingly do fine regardless of the setup. A lot of this is going to be dependent on a species' natural history, and overall temprement.

>>[From Chris H.]
I believe this issue is much more complex than boredom. For whatever reason snakes often seem to do better in smaller, tighter cages. There are countless anecdotes of snakes going off feed when moved from large, naturalistic vivaria and into a smaller LAM setup (hope I remember that acronym correctly).

I think you were maybe trying to say the snakes did better in smaller LAM setups? If so I would have to be a fence-sitter here as well. I have snakes that do great in either setup, and some [my Ball Pythons] that seem to have improved in appetite upon being moved out of large natural setups into small LAM setups. I think it can go either way. The key is making a natural setup that incorporates everything the snakes needs/wants to feel secure and thus eat and behave normally/naturally.

Chris also mentions Gonyosoma that refused to eat in large naturalistic setups until moved into small LAM setups. Again, here you have to examine how the original larger setup was done. I'd bet even with a nervous species like Gonyosoma, if you built the mother of all cages and had a huge walk-in setup with dozens of live plants, hides everywhere branches all over the place, you'd probably have very happy, healthy snakes, but then again, who has the space to do something like that for only two or three snakes?

>Personally, I agree with the philosophy and intent of the author: that snakes kept in naturalistic vivaria are likely to be more stimulated and less "bored" than those kept in rack systems.

I've had this debate before and it opens a HUGE can of worms - which is better? Rack vs. natural. Some people have their opinions and nothing you say or have them read will change that opinion. If it has worked for them and their animals have lived to the ripe old age of 20 years and have bred, who's to say that method doesn't work? I however, disagree and think you should offer as much stimulation as you can. Enrich your animals by regularly introducing the scent of new leaves or grasses, changing the rocks or branches around, even moving the cage to another part of the room. Why just let them exist with the minimum requirements to sustain life. Even if they live long and breed sucessfully, what existence is it to live out it's entire life in a plastic box with the same layout for 20 years. Pretty sorry if you ask me.

>I find it difficult to accept that fecal matter can simply be spot-cleaned, while the rest is allowed to mix into the substrate for bacteria to break down.

You'd be amazed at what the normal bacteria load of a soil substrate is capable of. Especially when you combine the benefits of live plants to purify the air, provide oxygen, and not to mention the benefit they derive from the waste products.

>Still, there's nothing that logically goes against that assumption, except for the widespread practice of keeping cages 100% sterile.

If you can find the book I recommeded, you'll find out more about why 'sterile' cages can be bad. Basically to paraphrase that portion of the chapter: Sterile or clinically 'clean' cages = less bacteria and subsequently lower resistence to disease, while a naturalistic setup helps the animal maintain it's normal robust constitution.

>I'd like to accept what the book has to offer because it seems revolutionary and rings well with me, but I can't get past the "cleanliness" factor.

You'll learn to love only having to spot clean.

>incandescent lights have to be used, which means the humidity level invariably drops. And if you know much about rainbows, they require very high humidity (80%) and low temps (73-81). I think this would be difficult to achieve using just incandescent lights as heating. In addition, he mentions that well-sealed cages without much ventilation aren't good for bioactivity, either, and that's what I'm doing to seal in humidity for my rainbow.

You can use incandescent lighting to provide a low level of heat. Since you have a Brazilian, they require lower temps and high humidity. An incandescent of low wattage would adequately provide your ambient temps with basking spots and probably wouldn't do too much to excessively dry out the cage. Also, you would want to have good ventilation, meaning large screen side panels and a screen top. You want the air in your cage to be humid but not moldy and stagnant. Also, you can combat low humid by using humidity boosting devices like misters or ultrasonic humidifiers attached to a timer to come on multiple times a day as needed to maintain high amibient humidity.

Okay, well that's enough for now. I wholeheartedly recommend naturalistic vivaria whenever possible, and though some of what I've mentioned may seem very complex or difficult, it all depends on what you want out of the hobby. For me and many of the people who regularly post on the Habitat/caging forum, the caging and all the associated avenues for design, landscaping, etc. are just as much a part of herp keeping as the animals. To me the two go hand in hand. I am constantly looking at ways to improve the design of my cages as well as ways to make them more natural and more accomodating for the animals that inhabit them. The greatest reward seems to be in seeing that you've finally struck that perfect balance where the animal is stimulated, exhibits favorable natural behaviors, and best of all is doing it all in a cage that looks like a little slice of the outdoors.
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Matt Campbell
Animal Keeper, Small Mammal/Reptile House
Lincoln Park Zoo Chicago, Illinois

Assistant Curator
Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, Illinois

Thank you for your recommendation! I think I'll definitely check out that book.

I think that my "apprehensions" are slowly being replaced by curiosity regarding this method... I'm seriously considering trying a little experiment with my next cage for my BRB. The humidity is still the thing that bugs me, though. With the top of my cage uncovered, I have been completely unable to reach the high humidity necessary, except by constant misting. I suppose an ultrasonic fogger or misting system would work, but wouldn't it need to run often? Not that that's a problem, but I wonder about the efficiency of such a setup.

Still, I'd love to give this a try. Like I mentioned in another reply, de Vosjoli infers that reptiles need to (my take on it) hygroregulate to control their humidity level as well as thermoregulate. Besides the classic "moist/damp hide", what are other ways to increase humidity near the cage floor? Would dense plant cover a few inches off the substrate do the trick?

Anyway, back to your post. I think that you're right when you mention that different species have different needs when it comes to LAM vs. naturalistic. Most likely, this is something that needs to be determined based on the individual snake's "personality" and behavior. In a large enough cage, however, I would think that if a portion was created as a naturalistic equivalent of a LAM setup (for instance, a larger secure, dark hide, with a smaller hide and a small pool inside), the same benefits as the LAM system might be seen. I wonder if in the case of the ball pythons, a large subtank hide (like those pull-out shelves you see in some of the newer Boaphile designs) underneath a naturalistic enclosure would be the best of both worlds. When it needs security, the python could simply slip down the hole and into his dark subtank hide. For exercise or stimulation, it is an easy matter for it to crawl back out and into the main cage. Of course, this may be contradictory to the idea of a display cage, but the animal's needs should come first.

I agree with what you are saying about quality of life for these animals. I do think that LAM systems have a niche that they need to fill, specifically for breeders and large-scale operations. And if a hobbyist decides to employ the same methods for whatever reason, I don't condemn them. But I do share your philosophy, and although I've never tried a bioactive approach, I am keeping my BRB in a roomy naturalistic enclosure (except that the "wood" is resin for easy cleaning, and the plants are fake).

One random thought I'd like to add to the end here. What happens when a parasite, let's say mites, invades the enclosure thanks to improper quarantining, new arrivals, etc. etc.? Most sites recommend throwing out any organic materials in the cage to assure that the mites don't continue to breed. What is your experience with this? In the case of mites, it would seem that in a naturalistic setup, this means throwing out all your carefully-cultivated plants, well-populated bioactive substrate, and prized pieces of wood and cork. Any thoughts?

Thank you for your response, it was very engaging. This is an interesting topic.
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::i believe in joy > http://www.winds.org/nekomi/hope.html

::my homepage > http://www.winds.org/nekomi

My Growing Zoo:

1.0 Husband (Byron) ^_^
0.1 black cat (Shade)
0.1 Brazilian Rainbow Boa (Zia)
1.2 Cockatoo cichlids (A. cacatuoides yellow-gold)
1.1 WC Cockatoo cichlids (A. cacatuoides blue Peru)
3.3 Pygmy corydoras (C. pygmaeus)
2.0 Endlers' Livebearers (P. sp. Endlers)

You would simply treat for mites using Provent-a-Mite. It's an aerosol spray product that allows you to treat the substrate which has the effect of killing mites as well as any other invertebrate creepy crawlies. You can find out more info about Provent-a-Mite at www.pro-products.com
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Matt Campbell
Animal Keeper, Small Mammal/Reptile House
Lincoln Park Zoo Chicago, Illinois

Assistant Curator
Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, Illinois

Hi Matt,

Enjoyed skimming through your posts on this subject. Hope to read them in more detail later, but I'm trying to get my snake room done by March 1'st.

Few quick comments:

>>>>[From Chris H.]
>>I believe this issue is much more complex than boredom. For whatever reason snakes often seem to do better in smaller, tighter cages. There are countless anecdotes of snakes going off feed when moved from large, naturalistic vivaria and into a smaller LAM setup (hope I remember that acronym correctly).

>>I think you were maybe trying to say the snakes did better in smaller LAM setups?

Yes, basically, although I still believe the average keeper does not properly set up hides and heat sournces in larger cages. After one could in theory set up a rubbermaid inside of a naturalistic cage and have it set up LAM-style.

I believe that most snakes will do fine in a larger cage but care needs to be paid when setting up hides (make them "tighter" and heating (forget UTH's and use an overhead source).

So when us keepers move a snake from a larger cage to a rubbermaid we're really changing more than one variable and can't truely identify the smaller cage as the source of improvement.

Not that I'm telling you anything new, I just wanted to clarify my position.

>>Chris also mentions Gonyosoma that refused to eat in large naturalistic setups until moved into small LAM setups. Again, here you have to examine how the original larger setup was done. I'd bet even with a nervous species like Gonyosoma, if you built the mother of all cages and had a huge walk-in setup with dozens of live plants, hides everywhere branches all over the place, you'd probably have very happy, healthy snakes...

Actually, some Europeans have suggested they don't do well in these type of setups, especially when they first are brought into captivity. And their welfare laws require a 5'x5'x5' cube for a single specimens, and a 20% increase from their for any additional specimen. And they plant them up so much you can hardly find the snakes.

I would have liked to have pinned the down for more specifics but finding a German, Dutch, etc. Gonyosoma keeper who is fluent in English and has the pulse on their herp community is very hard.

But I keep trying
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Current snakes:

0.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Silver/Yellow)

3.3 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Green)

2.1 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black)

3.3 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black & Tan)

Chris,

I follow what you're saying about providing optimal hide within larger cages. When I used to house a pair of Ball Pythons in a huge enclosure, they would climb branches two to three feet off the cage floor and would cruise and explore all night it seemed sometimes. However, even though they had hidespots, one would eat semi regularly, while the other would only eat sporadically. Eventually I shifted caging around and got rid of the huge cage and put them both into much smaller cages. Both of them have eaten virtually every meal offered since being put into the smaller cages. I think for example, you could build small tight hide spots maybe with substrate heaters underneath, and with the hides being sunk well into a deep substrate or perhaps in special cavities dug into the base of the cage floor. The key here is all in creating microclimates within the larger scope of the full size vivarium. It's not so much creating a LAM setup within a naturalistic vivarium as simply trying create as many microclimates as possible. It's interesting that you mention that the Euros haven't had success with this naturalistic approach on a large scale with the Gonyosoma - I would say maybe they haven't delved into how to create those microclimates better, but then again if anyone would've done it it would be the Euros.
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Matt Campbell
Animal Keeper, Small Mammal/Reptile House
Lincoln Park Zoo Chicago, Illinois

Assistant Curator
Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, Illinois