Reptile & Amphibian Forums

.. What is it all about? I have missed the second-coming or something, I'll admit

We have people who enjoy and admire their Guyana boas and many who love their Suris.. If you 'they're all the same' guys want to interbreed these closely related members of the same subspecies for whatever purposes who cares? I sure don't. And if I or other people who have Suriname boas or Guiana boas or Guyana boas want to try to breed them for the uniqueness we see .. why does this bug you? and why is this so important now?.

And what's next? all other Boa are also alike? That's going to be silly.. Admit it, there are differences.. the question is how much importance do you put on those differences and where do you draw a distinction. If you're saying you don't care.. so what, good for you! What I think you're saying is you're so right and people like me are so very wrong.. here's a surprise for you, SO WHAT?

Say there is only one animal in all of Suriname clearly unique as a Suriname boa and only one animal in all of Guyana of which nothing like it had ever been seen elsewhere .. that one example still implies a measureable physical gradient of characteristics and if nuts like me say we can see it.. NaNaNaNaNaaaaNa! ... and while you're digesting that go raise and breed a dozen or more unique localities of Boa.c.ssp. from all the extremes of their range and habitat... and then raise and breed their offspring and see if you don't start to get sensitive to other differences besides scale-counts. There's something you can go prove..

What are we supposed to prove next.. the existence of air.. "Well, I sure can't see it!!" I'm betting the whole thing disappears in another 2 months when we all have baby boas to show off.. but consider this also..

Many people making broad statements like 'boas are all the same' have contributed past postings giving specific details on how some animal, maybe a morph or individual line or some prized pet is a standout in any number of ways right down to the way it winks, heck every animal they own is unique and superior in some way or many ways.. They'll tell them apart from any other Boa while blindfolded in a hurricane while eating a raw onion! ...... Now some of those same proud owners attack me and others calling us 'rookies' because we apply the same scrutiny and discrimination to our Suriname or Guyana projects... that's silly at best and dishonest at the worst..

Let's play nice.

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Gus
A. Rentfro
RioBravoReptiles.com
www.riobravoreptiles.com

"Quality is not an accident. Perfectly healthy animals are a minimum requirement.. everything else is just salesmanship" gus

if some wanna be specific about it thats fine .. if they dont , thats fine too.. i just really get upset when some people make a huge deal about it .. are there differences ? sometimes there are sometimes there arent .. i have a couple of guyanas , surinams and even french guiana that if i put em all together you wouldnt know whish is which ! seriously .. i know what they are cause i personally got em imported from there !! am i gonna breed em together ? well , that depends what im lookin to get for myself at the time .. yes some guyanas area little different than most suris .. but i have also see some guyanas that look just like your typical suri.. i just go on what im lookin for in a redtail. i have even see some surinams for example that look alot like brazilians .. for example i have seen some of the babies produced by florida retails for example .. beautiful crisp patterns and a little shorter than average tails for suri's.. who cares ? hes producing babies that everyone is desiring .. thats what i want ! babies that even i have to say wow !! while at the same time staying in the boundries of what a surinam or guyanas main traits are .. thats my goal .. but again .. thats what "I" want !! anyone is free to do what theyd like .. im not gonna knock on anyone for duin whatever they feel is intresting to them. its not like we are gonna release these animals back into the wild.. lol .. i hope i dont piss anyone off by writing this ..lol just my $.02 koky

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NO BEAUTY LIKE THE BEAUTY OF A TRUE REDTAIL !!

.. and you should be proud of it and any Boa from other countries or locales you have that closely resemble it..

The difference in my point of view from the 'all the same' guys is easily demonstrated by this: if I were to acquire animals with known provenance from three different countries I would have picked the ones that were unique to their origins not the ones most similar.. and I have been to Suriname and Guiana and seen many examples of known Suriname, Guiana and Guyana boas and while some are very similar very many are not..

Have fun,
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Gus
A. Rentfro
RioBravoReptiles.com
www.riobravoreptiles.com

"Quality is not an accident. Perfectly healthy animals are a minimum requirement.. everything else is just salesmanship" gus

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Derek Roberts
Sonoran Reptile Breeders
sonoranreptile@cox.net

np
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NO BEAUTY LIKE THE BEAUTY OF A TRUE REDTAIL !!

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Derek Roberts
Sonoran Reptile Breeders
sonoranreptile@cox.net

Did you aquire that from Jeff Draesel? If yes, I will tell you something........GOD BLESS.....Johnson Herp

and he had it sold and it got loose on him and he cant find it !! lol what a shame !! thats one of the best breeders ive ever seen !! i have 3 females hopefully gravid from him . he almost bred himself to death i tell ya .. lol.. those are pics that are 3 months old ..
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NO BEAUTY LIKE THE BEAUTY OF A TRUE REDTAIL !!

I am the one who was going to buy it to put into my French Guiana group. I cannot believe it got away. I have some True Frenches and he would have been perfect to incorporate and now if he did find it, I would be nervous about getting it. Sad man!.......GOD BLESS ......Johnson Herp

i was really regretting sellin that snake to begin with and when he called me last week i believe and told me i was heartbroken !! those pics i posted of that snake do him nooooo justice at all !! in person when you picked him up , you didnt wanna put him down !! he was definately one of the prettiest animals ive ever seen ! im really intrested in pics of your true french guianas.. any chance of pics ?
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NO BEAUTY LIKE THE BEAUTY OF A TRUE REDTAIL !!

"If you 'they're all the same' guys want to interbreed these closely related members of the same subspecies for whatever purposes who cares? "

Wouldn't the 'inbreeding' be much more severe from 'suriXsuri' than 'guyanaXsuri'?? Come on man.

"and why is this so important now?."

Nothing is important... they're just snakes man. However, you and a couple others state that you can identify the differences... maybe I'm blind here... but give me some solid evidence. The patterns run the same gambit, as do the colors, the skeletal structure is identical, as well as the scale count and all behavioral attributes. There is simply nothing that I can identify to seperate these animals... you claim there is... what EXACTLY is it... BEYOND what some importer tells you to pasify your desire to have them be different, if only in your mind.

"And what's next? all other Boa are also alike?"

Don't be silly, we are just asking a simpe question, and people are getting riled up instead of offering a concrete answer.

"Admit it, there are differences.. "

Well, not to be a broken record... but... LIKE WHAT? What ARE these concrete differences that you place your intesgrity as a locale expert on, to CLEARLY differentiate between what yo uare claiming is 2 seperate locales.

" What I think you're saying is you're so right and people like me are so very wrong.. here's a surprise for you, SO WHAT?"

I'll happily wear some egg on my face if some form of evidence can be coughed up.

"and if nuts like me say we can see it.. NaNaNaNaNaaaaNa! ..."

Ah, thet's excellent. The neener neener defense... brilliant.

"What are we supposed to prove next.. the existence of air.. "Well, I sure can't see it!!"

Air, just like boas can be measured, analyzed and scientifically described. I can't see air on earth, or air on mars, but they both have it. There is however scientific factual evidense that we can use to compare the attributes of both are samples, and deduce they are infact both air, however radically different.

"Now some of those same proud owners attack me and others calling us 'rookies' because we apply the same scrutiny and discrimination to our Suriname or Guyana projects."

Well you are the one deciding that comment was aimed at you. Prove me wrong Gus. I don't for one second doubt your credibility, reputation, or experience. Just gimmie the fact, how am I wrong... not a vague blanket response, but EXACTLY, what is wrong with the statement "they are one and the same snake". Suriname, guyana, and Frech Guiana sit on a geographic area known as the Guyana Highlands, or the Guyana Shield. This region approximates the land mass of Peru. Peruvians are a locality on to themselves... CLEARLY diffenent in pattern if not body characteristics than the eastern basin, or Guyana Highland (norther) forms of BCC. Anyone can see this. The 'difference' between an Iquitos, or a Pucallpa.. is nill. One could satisfy his own desire to differentiate them by calling them 'sub' locales perhaps. But, there are equadorians, iquitos, etc etc yadda yaddda, and they are the same. There are occurances of qualities of all the 'peruvian types' in all these groups. I say the same of the northerns. I say there ARE no suris or guyanas, or french guianas, there are only 'Northerns'. Again, I say this because I have seen all qualities in all populations. Suri and guyana are SMALL counties, seperated by absolutley nothing, all qualities of norther BCC come and go in 'both' populations... What is it exactly that I am not seeing. Im not to proud to say I'm wrong by any stretch.. I just need some good concrete to put my neck out on... so far there hasnt been anything outside of 'I can see a difference'.

I can see a difference between any given two people...AND I can TELL YOU what that difference IS.

Id you want to get offended and be argumentative, that's your choice.. but lets back it up with what the real question is here.

Cheers all, and remember, THEY ARE JUST SNAKES

.. that's silly at best and dishonest at the worst..
>>
>>Let's play nice.
>>
>>-----
>>Gus
>>A. Rentfro
>>RioBravoReptiles.com
>>www.riobravoreptiles.com
>>
>>"Quality is not an accident. Perfectly healthy animals are a minimum requirement.. everything else is just salesmanship" gus
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recycle your pets

Ran it through the checker, fixed everything, just forgot to re-copy and paste
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recycle your pets

seriously as they take this guyana, surinam debate .. lol
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NO BEAUTY LIKE THE BEAUTY OF A TRUE REDTAIL !!

Air does indeed exist. I have been to Los Angeles and seen it myself. And speaking of LA, I would like to quote one of its most infamous inhabitants, "Can't we ALL just get along?"
Thank you Mr. Rodney King!

Cheers,
Denny

>>Air does indeed exist. I have been to Los Angeles and seen it myself. And speaking of LA, I would like to quote one of its most infamous inhabitants, "Can't we ALL just get along?"
>>Thank you Mr. Rodney King!
>>
>>Cheers,
>>Denny
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E&C's Exotic House of Reptiles

.

Composition of Earth's Atmosphere

Nitrogen 78.1%
Oxygen 20.9%
Argon 0.9%
Carbon dioxide,
Methane,
Rare (inert) gases 0.1%

Composition of Mrs's Atmosphere

Carbon Dioxide 95.0%
Nitrogen 3.0%
Oxygen, Argon,
Carbon Monoxide 2.0%

These are scientific facts.

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recycle your pets

>>Composition of Earth's Atmosphere
>>
>>Nitrogen 78.1%
>>Oxygen 20.9%
>>Argon 0.9%
>>Carbon dioxide,
>>Methane,
>>Rare (inert) gases 0.1%
>>
>>
>>Composition of Mrs's Atmosphere
>>
>>Carbon Dioxide 95.0%
>>Nitrogen 3.0%
>>Oxygen, Argon,
>>Carbon Monoxide 2.0%
>>
>>These are scientific facts.
>>
>>
>>-----
>>recycle your pets
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recycle your pets

>>Composition of Earth's Atmosphere
>>
>>Nitrogen 78.1%
>>Oxygen 20.9%
>>Argon 0.9%
>>Carbon dioxide,
>>Methane,
>>Rare (inert) gases 0.1%
>>
>>
>>Composition of Mrs's Atmosphere
>>
>>Carbon Dioxide 95.0%
>>Nitrogen 3.0%
>>Oxygen, Argon,
>>Carbon Monoxide 2.0%
>>
>>These are scientific facts.
>>
>>
>>-----
>>recycle your pets
A whole lot of HOT AIR from some Humans!Eric!
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E&C's Exotic House of Reptiles

..... I think there is some nut issue or core argument being played out here that I'm unaware of. Your posts are way too argumentative, sooner or later that will come out. Somebody griping about lineage on something bought or sold, perhaps? I know we have a truck-driver sometime boa-owner who loves to stir-up controversy in here (and he's rollin about this now) but that can't be the whole deal.

I have nothing to prove to you, you are the one making claims and calling names... and who said anything about inbreeding? What are you saying, we should breed Sonoran Boas to Guiana snakes to avoid inbreeding?

Look, friend.. here's a question for you. B. constrictor c. exist all the way from the eastern highlands of Colombia to the atlantic ocean and south in a non-contiguous range potentially comprising millions of square miles. Do you see any difference at all in a redtail from southern Brazil and one from Guyana or Venezuela or Colombia?

Whether or not you see a difference (but if you don't that would explain a lot!) there are differences.. the general change in color, tone, pattern and pattern elements from west to east to south to north is what drives people to seek out these different populations of animals.. why the heqq do we go to the trouble of finding them and shipping them and breeding them? And.. as we get them we notice similarities and differences and they go beyond how many saddles they have (though that is also a characteristic somewhat unique, to a greater or lesser extent, to Boa across their geographical range)..

Now if you want to argue that along the international border between Suriname and Guyana these differences are weak to non-existent.. that's an obvious truth!... Where we do and will disagree is when you say 'Guyana boas and Suriname boas are all identical' ... That's insupportable nonsense just like saying all imperator Boa or even all occidentalis are identical.

Of course if you're sitting on data and images you've collected from your trips down there on animals you've seen and photographed in the wild from all corners of those countries and info on breeding and litter-size and other behaviours from colonies of these animals that you've nurtured from known locales in either region.. don't keep us in suspense! Share the good news!

Be safe.
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Gus
A. Rentfro
RioBravoReptiles.com
www.riobravoreptiles.com

"Quality is not an accident. Perfectly healthy animals are a minimum requirement.. everything else is just salesmanship" gus

I do not know if you were trying to be " servile " with the little trucker comment, but I kind of took it that way and I hope I am wrong. I was not trying to be argumentative and why in the H*ll can I not state my opinions and beliefs on this forum without being told I am trying " to create controversy!!!??? " I have never even gave notion to any disrespect to you and I would appreciate the same. You have been there and I have been there and we both have our own conclusions, Gus. Nothing makes me GOD and the same for you Buddy. The whole point was simple; " Take your rear ends down there and draw your own conclusions and don't listen to me or GUSSY BABY! " As far as I know; " Neither one of us has a published Herp book in Barnes and Nobles.......GOD BLESS........and proud to be a TRUCKER! and a sometime SNAKE KEEPER.......Johnson Herp

..... if you will look at the thread, I was not replying to your post, but to the previous. I was not talking down to you only making light of a debate which I thought was becoming too heated. But if you think I was I apologise..

YOUR TURN..

Your buddy, Gus

Gus, maybe I read it wrong, but it was the trucker and sometime snakekeeper that seemingly applied to me the way I read it. If you meant no offense, then you have nothing to apologise about. Maybe my medication has not kicked in? You have your beliefs and I have mine, but it seems I get ripped for mine, more times than not. I am not saying that I always come across tactful, but there is one thing that I always make clear when I say the words; " IN MY OPINION. "........GOD BLESS......Johnson Herp

.. to take your cheap-shot at me because you think you were slighted and then roll my apology into another justification for your harsh words? Aren't you the grown up!

Be safe on the road!

Your buddy, Gus

...just mud wrestle or something? C'mon, can we not have a discussion without the disgust? If there is no scientific evidence to prove whether or not they are the same ssp., then all we have are people's opinions. It is a good discussion, let's not get it banned because of some typing war.

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Derek Roberts
Sonoran Reptile Breeders
sonoranreptile@cox.net

This has gotten so out of hand, I do not even know what I am replying to anymore ( laughing my butt off right now ) Gus, I LOVE YOU MAN! That is all you need to know, brother. I look forward to the day when we can meet in person and cackle back and forth like a couple of old Hens! ( laughing even harder ) What would this forum do without us?? By the way, I have not forgotten about the adult female we discussed and I would still like to have her and you better darn sure know the location of the porch she was found under! ( My sides are hurting. ).........GOD BLESS......Johnson Herp

Now, Mr. Kingsnake coordinator, I am not trying to get a War started, but I need to say one thing. In reference to your " Sometime snakekeeper comment, Gus. " I never got out of Corallus, BUT from 2000 - 02 I did get out of B.C.C. , because I was on the road following a music career that is still in the making and loved my wife enough to not expect her to take care of a bunch of 60 - 70 pound Peruvians. I had some of the best in the country and 5 of them were Jeff Ronnies very best ( Mr. Perfect and stubb tail and the two biggest females besides Christina ) I hated to do it, but my priorities had to come first and in 2000 produced those gorgeous babies that everyone went wild about that to this day, ( thanks to someone that is the Devil Himself that I better not mention or this will be erased ) I have not gotten bloodline credibility for. Sometimes, life happens and we have to not be selfish of others and do things that we would rather not do. In the last three years I have selected beautiful and EXACT localities from both Suriname and Guyana and lucked up on some TRUE French Guianas and I look forward to producing them, when I have the desire to do so. If there are any other questions from the floor about my credibility now and or past dealings or any rumors that I need to put to rest, feel free to ask. I am tired of peoples assumptions. Most of the people that make these assumptions have NEVER done business with me and do not know me and THAT IS what seperates them from the ones that have.......GOD BLESS..........Johnson Herp

"I have nothing to prove to you, you are the one making claims and calling names..."

Again, I never called anyone person anything. My point was it seems niave at best to claim they are different. Especially when you can't SAY what the difference is.

"and who said anything about inbreeding?"

You did gus... I was quoting you. Go back and read your post.

"What are you saying, we should breed Sonoran Boas to Guiana snakes to avoid inbreeding?"

breed whatever you like man. I've got no hangups.
Doesn't sound like an attractive mix to me though.

"Look, friend.. here's a question for you. B. constrictor c. exist all the way from the eastern highlands of Colombia to the atlantic ocean and south in a non-contiguous range potentially comprising millions of square miles. Do you see any difference at all in a redtail from southern Brazil and one from Guyana or Venezuela or Colombia?"

Surely. At this point you are describing an exponentially larger land mass. You are also introducing an incomparable refference to avoid simply answering the question at hand.

"the general change in color, tone, pattern and pattern elements from west to east to south to north is what drives people to seek out these different populations of animals."

Now we're getting somewher, but not very far due to the vagueness. Are you saying general color tones are exlusive to one country or another?

"And.. as we get them we notice similarities and differences and they go beyond how many saddles they have (though that is also a characteristic somewhat unique, to a greater or lesser extent, to Boa across their geographical range).."

So what ARE these saddle differences?

"Now if you want to argue that along the international border between Suriname and Guyana these differences are weak to non-existent.. that's an obvious truth!"

You're getting me all wrong. I dont WANT to argue anything. I stated an opinion posts ago, you said I was wrong, or at least stated the exact opposite opinion. I'm always hungry for knowlege, not debate. I'm conversing. I respect your carrerr and accomplishments, but not so much that I wouldn't ask you to back up a given claim.

"'Guyana boas and Suriname boas are all identical' ... That's insupportable nonsense just like saying all imperator Boa or even all occidentalis are identical."

Well, Imperator is a SSP. Much to vague of an SSP at that. I would never state that Mexican and Hogs, and Colombian BCI are the same. There are obvious, verifiable differences. What I'm saying is there is no difference between Suris and Guyanas (locales of the same SSP). I also say there is no difference between an Iquitos, a Pucallpa, and a generic Peruvian. Same snake. I can CLEARLY recognize the differnce between the peruvian type and the guyana shield type... both are BCC. And I would happily TELL you what I see as far as the differences.

"Of course if you're sitting on data and images you've collected from your trips down there on animals you've seen and photographed in the wild from all corners of those countries and info on breeding and litter-size and other behaviours from colonies of these animals that you've nurtured from known locales in either region.. don't keep us in suspense! Share the good news!"

So you're plainly eluding to your deduction that I've never been. Maybe I have and maybe I haven't... but we all KNOW you have. So.. TELL us. I don't have mountains of data. I have though had a NUMBER of both suris and guyanas. And NONE are verifiable... some are imports, some are CBB. They all run the gambit of looks, obviously conforming more or less to my personal tastes.

YOU share the good news. Again Gus, I'm making no attacks, nor am I fueled by a desire to argue... I just simply want to know, in all honesty, whay you claim the deffinative difference is. Irespect completley your record and acomplishments, but you're acting like a politician right now...
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recycle your pets

I don't think anyone doubts that if you took a selection of boas from Suriname and a bunch from Guyana that there would on the average be some slight differences in appearance between them. But that doesn't mean the distinction that is made in the hobby has any real meaning.

First of all, why segregate based on country which is, obviously, biologically meaningless? Why is it wrong to breed an animal from Suriname with one from Guyana but OK to breed one from northern Suriname with one from southern Suriname? Only because we typically don't know whether an animal is from northern or southern Suriname. But in fact we usually don't know whether an animal is from Suriname or Guyana either, even in cases where we think we do.

It's the arbitrariness and simple-mindedness of basing the distinction on a political boundary, combined with the unreliability of most locality information that makes me, and a lot of others, question whether the distinction is worth making.

I think too many of these annalytical synonyms people are giveing are funny.

BTW, you can see air, or at least its contribution. As described by John Locke, you do not need to visit a planet to find its atmosphereic composistion. Simply by looking through a telescope at the COLOR of the "air" you can find what gases are included. Each element burns different spectrums of color.

Just a little info, LOL.

I cannot read peoples minds, but this has been a debate with breeders at least for the last 17yrs that I have " actually " kept B.C.C. localities.That is why, I have recommended people trying to budget a trip down there to see these things for themselves. I know that you have had travels in different areas of South America as I and you have came up with your own convictions, as I have also. Maybe, this is the most important aspect; " Everyone that can, should go and draw their own conclusions? " Almost all of my bloodlines are known localities from Suriname and Guyana. I do not ever " knowingly or intentionally " breed one to another and this is just my personnal choice, but if the two localities are bred together, by mistake, " it is not a terrible thing and I am as big a PURIST as anyone. " It is kind of a " double edged sword " when it comes down to it for example; " A Peruvian and a Suriname is classified under the species B.C.C. Therefore, is it a bad thing to cross the two? They are the same species. " Here is my take and one of many examples; " Alot of the classifications that were done on these animals were done years ago and in my opinion are very outdated. " If it were done to do further research, we would probably have many more Sub-Species than what we do right now. Truth be known, a Peruvian Boa should be a different Sub-Species from a Suriname and a Guyana. I am a firm believer that; " Eastern Venezuela to French Guiana and the parts of Brazil that border those are pretty much the same Boa. " Why,I have been there and done that and seen for myself. On the other hand; " I have seldom seen a boa from Peru that could go for a Suriname " on average. " There is even a exception to that rule. B.C.C. are so freaking variable, that it is not even funny and that is why there is so much confusion.Nature, does not know political borders and here is my take; " I truly believe that there are certain segregated pockits of Jungle that Boas ADAPT different characteristics, ( Boas from dense Jungle or more open Jungle or Higher elevations or dryer areas or wetter areas ) kind of how a cave salammander develops no eyes.To close; " I choose to keep localities straight and to buy from others that do the same, this is my personnal coviction. " In the wild, weird things can happen that even rival irresponsible breedings in captivity. In the 90s, my good friend Stan Chiras brought in a wild caught gravid Emerald Tree Boa that throwed babies that were obviously sired by an Amazon Tree Boa! This has proven to be fact and happens in the wild and they are two COMPLETELY DIFFERENT SPECIES. What does that have to do with anything? I don't know, think about it? On the Wokemon Island alone, " I seen purple with widows peaks and pinks with none and red tails and orange tails and black tails and purple tails and silver boas and blue boas and boas with green and boas with speckling and some with none and bellys with speckling and some with none and in Pokrigon Suriname, the same thing. " This is not a O.K. to cross species, but if you do not know for sure, have fun and call them what they really are: Boa Constrictor Constrictor ssp..........GOD BLESS.......Johnson Herp

This si coming from someone who has been there first hand on shipments coming in from both countries at once, and going through them. As well as first hand experience talking to exporters that have visited Miami. From both Suriname and Guyana.
A hypothesis of their words:
I notice that people think there is a big difference in guyanese and surinamese animals.
We dont have any respect towards that, if guyana is closed we truck them over to suriname and export them from there. and Vice versa.
There is no general difference. In guyana, the trappers do not take very good care of the animals as the suriname trappers do.
Depends on what species as well.The middle men stationed right at the borders buying from both countries and then selling to an exporter from which ever country offers him more for the stock.
Now where does someone send back an animal to guyana or the middle man because it "looks" different.
Never.

Now my 2 cents

I can guarantee that even the person with the strictest locale info has surinames labeled as pure guyanans, and guyanans labeled as pure surinames. Now if you export the animals and catch them yourselves and know which country your in, then you might have 100% pure of one type or another.
I will even guarantee that the locality god Herman Stoeckl(sp?) has animals mislabeled, but he might think that they are 100% pure.
I can guarantee it as it is a very widely accepted practice from over there to buy from middle men who travel between both countries with snakes more than likely from three countries.
Now I know alot of you will be mad I burst your bubbles but that is why I think that the whole locale thing in the extreme is a total waste of time and in my opinion, I know if buying suriname cbb babies or guyanan cbb babies, there is no 1005 way of knowing that the snakes didnt get caught on one side ofthe river, and sold to the higher payer on the other side of the river who was trying to fill a big order.
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"Quality isn't Quality without customer service so I guess I sell quality"

There is no way at all to determine where one boa or another is REALLY from once it is in captivty. Unless of course like you say, you caught and exported it yourself.

Though even IF you got one of each, yourself... you could easily identify one from the other, hence a distinction you can hold onto in your mind... but in reality, neither one is representative of the population as a whole. So you have your suri, and your guyana, and you know wich is wich, and you know their different and can easily describe the differences between the two snakes. The reality is you still have 2 of the same snake, either look could just as easily sprouted up 100, 200, 500 even a thousand miles away (given there are no insurmountable geographic barries in the way).

I see some people got riled up in this thread... all I ever asked for was for those clinging to that belief simply OUTLINE, what it is exactly that we can use to tell them apart.

If no such distinctions exsist and you STILL claim them to be distincitvley differnt... then I have a bridge for sale.
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recycle your pets

np

Snakes don't.

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Derek Roberts
Sonoran Reptile Breeders
sonoranreptile@cox.net

np