Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have some females that will be second timers (meaning, they laid eggs and hatched successfully last year and this year will be their second time), and some females that will be their third year. For my females that will be in their third year this coming season, the number of eggs they laid in the 1st season is same number (plus or minus one egg) as compared to the second season...so my question is, should i expect same number of eggs for each female based on past performance?

Would increasing the body weight before mating increase the chances of having more fertile eggs laid? Of course, it also depends on the male...I guess this subject is just up for discussion...

thanks...

Ray

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RAY

I have noticed that feeding multiple meals often before breeding and egg laying yields more eggs. I think a higher caloric intake while the female is producing egg follicles is necessary for her to produce a greater number of follicles.

I have had a breeder female Thayeri that has laid eggs the last 4 years. I got her as an proven adult breeder and she has consistently laid 13 eggs every year with a hatch rate over 90%.

I see nothing wrong with "powerfeeding" an adult female right out of hibernation until she lays her clutch. The key is multiple food items as often as she will eat. She will use the calories, protein and vitamins for egg follicle production.
John Lassiter

Thanks for the input John. I'm just wondering if there is a balance or a fine line between and along the lines of advantages and disadvantages of an "overweight" ovulating female snake as compared to "normal" weight ovulating female one... whether I am placing my female snake in the future for high risk diseases or shorter lifespan caused by overfeeding in the hopes of getting more eggs to be laid. It would be interesting to see if any long time breeders out there can tell me if: 1) overfeeding does in fact create more eggs as you pointed out in your experience and 2) if overfeeding for the purpose of having more eggs does shorten the lifespan of the snake.

More input anyone? John, thanks again man.
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RAY

Ray,
I have a 12 year old female caliking that I have had on this feeding regimen since her first year of breeding. Snakes in the wild eat more than one might think. There is a plethora of lizards and mice in the wild.
I feed my neonates about 150 meals in their first year. When they reach adulthood a maintenance feeding schedule will suffice (Two mice a week). It is only right out of hibernation do I feed many meals often. This does not cause obesity nor short term lifespan.
It is also important for double clutching if wanted.
John Lassiter

John,

Thanks for clarifying that you only overfeed right after brumation. I think reading back your earlier post, you did say that you overfeed right after brumation. I immediately thought that the overfeeding also happens all year round. In the past, I have not done "second clutching" for fear of over stressing the snake and having it exposed more to a higher risk of illness because of pregnancy and such. I have read stuff about 2nd clutch breeding and maybe I will try this year and see how it goes. I'll try your advise and hope for the best.

Cheers!
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RAY

Yes I feed alot only after brumation and before second clutches. I would not call it overfeeding rather needed calories. LOL
You are welcome Ray.
-John Lassiter-

Thanks for sharing your insight... I plan on breeding my black milks next year, and I had been wondering how to adjust the female's feeding schedule. Now I know. What about the male? I have read that they will often go off feed during the breeding season. I can't imagine a gaigeae going off feed, but stranger things have happened. Should I (attempt to) feed the male more to increase fertility, or is the female the only important factor in the equation?

Thanks,
Nate

Nate,
I keep my male on a regular feeding year round, but sometimes I get frustrated around breeding time since some males are reluctant to feed. So, when the male does want to eat, I let it consume as much as he wants. After about 2 days of digesting he is ready to mate again.
-John Lassiter-

Hey guys,

I also want to add to what John said about feeding males while mating season. My males have always been very good in keeping their eating habits on schedule... but the difference in what i do during mating season is, instead of feeding the males one full grown mouse, I give each male like 3 hoppers a week...and smaller preys seem to do the trick all the time. Try that and see.

Later guys...
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RAY

You are right Ray. Smaller food items and more of them seems to work better for me as well, but I give the males quite a bit more than that during breeding season because if he is in the mood for eating then I know later he will be in the mood for other things so I let him eat as much as he can when he IS feeding.
If a male continues feeding throughout the breeding season then I keep them on the same schedule year round. It is only the ones that go off feed during the breeding season do I let gorge themselves.
John Lassiter

John,
I understand you generally observe power feeding yields more eggs, but the thayeri example -- at least the info provided -- doesn't relate to that. Did she always lay smaller clutches before you got her? And were you told that previous owner didn't feed her much prior to breeding? And re: your generalization, do you always power feed? Do it selectively? If you're always doing it--and if i thought it led to greater reproductive success, i'd do it consistently (I do and i do) anyway, if you're always feeding aggressively, then where's the comparison, to lead to this conclusion?
Terry

>>I have noticed that feeding multiple meals often before breeding and egg laying yields more eggs. I think a higher caloric intake while the female is producing egg follicles is necessary for her to produce a greater number of follicles.
>>
>>I have had a breeder female Thayeri that has laid eggs the last 4 years. I got her as an proven adult breeder and she has consistently laid 13 eggs every year with a hatch rate over 90%.
>>
>>I see nothing wrong with "powerfeeding" an adult female right out of hibernation until she lays her clutch. The key is multiple food items as often as she will eat. She will use the calories, protein and vitamins for egg follicle production.
>>John Lassiter

Great Topic Ray!

I've pondered the same question in the past and experienced quite the mixed results in feeding to increase egg production with hondurans.

I don't powerfeed out of brumation but do feed more frequently to increase a given females weight. The general concensus is to feed as much as a female will eat prior to breeding and ovulation. I outright refuse to powerfeed. I do beleive the extra weight does make a significant difference in the amount of eggs laid as well as viability.

However, overweight females with grossly over streched scales will often times slug out and/or have major egg binding/retaining problems. I think the trick is to find the perfect balance with each females.

On another note about double clutching, as much as we may or may not want a second clutch, each female as her own agenda, I've noticed that double clutching females will most always double clutch every year. A heavy feeding schedule after a first cluch will almost guarantee a second clutch. On the other hand, I've had females which I'd never expect to give me a second clutch, lay a low percentage of viable eggs because the male was not introduced to properly fertalize this second clutch. I now reintroduce the male to avoid this as much as possible should a female decide to double clutch.

You need to learn how to read each female individualy, this is the key to maximizing your clutches while maintaining a healthy snake.

My 2 copper coins anyways

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Marc Bouchard
Selectively Bred Serpents
www.selectively-bred-serpents.ca

Hello Marc,

Thanks for your reply and I'm glad you liked my new topic discussion...lol..

Terrific insights you have posted here. I wanted to initially find out what experienced breeders usually do... but I also make sure that the health of the snakes is not in jeopardy. I think I mentioned in this forum before that I volunteer at the zoo and there is nothing more important to me than to make sure that the health and well being of the snake is taken care of...regardless of how tempting it is to produce as many hatchlings as possible. One of the zookeepers told me that it is actually more important that the females are properly fed first and foremost BEFORE brumation. If the female is thin going into brumation and then is fed more after brumation to do "catch up", that would certainly be not a good idea at all. I think you hit the bullseye there when you said that the key is " to find the perfect balance with each females. " In the long run, it would be more beneficial to the females healthwise.

As for second clutching, even if there is a danger of the females laying slugs because they were not mated with the males, I think the more important thing to consider is the body weight of the female after her first clutch. During the second breeding, it takes a lot of energy and nutrients from a female laying fertile eggs than another female just laying slugs because the former has embryos to nourish from its mother.

Great discussion Marc! And thanks again.
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RAY

>>As for second clutching, even if there is a danger of the females laying slugs because they were not mated with the males, I think the more important thing to consider is the body weight of the female after her first clutch. During the second breeding, it takes a lot of energy and nutrients from a female laying fertile eggs than another female just laying slugs because the former has embryos to nourish from its mother.

Ray, I'm not sure this observation is on the mark. I have had more eggbound females bound with slugs than with good eggs. Several possibilities come to mind: whatever health deficit causes the snake to get eggbound also causes the eggs not to be fertilized. That's one possibility. But on the other hand, I think slugs can be much harder to deposit than big, firm, full eggs.

In addition, I'm not sure exactly how much "nourishing" goes on as the eggs develop inside the female, that may depend on how each reader defines "nourishing."

At any rate, i wouldn't be too quick to draw conclusions on any of the issues in the excellent questions you've raised.

terry

First off I am a firm believer it is damn hard to over feed a colubrid. If temps are right they should have a fast metabolism and poop out meals soon after they eat. I know there's always an excpetion to the rule but most overweight snakes I have encountered were owned by pet owners who just liked to see snakes eat, and especially eat large rodents. So these people were also less likely to have thier snakes set up with proper space and temps which contributes to the extra fat.
As some people mentioned it depends on a particular snake....I think it's wrong to say you can only feed these snakes this much or else this n that will happen. My breeding males do not eat much until summer hits, in spring they are mostly interested in breeding but they always look healthy. So far all my snakes have come out of brumation looking the same as they went into it. They eat a mouse here n there, get busy with the females, and then when breeding season is over they become ravenous and eat like pigs.
But my females are way different. I always feed them small mice, and I offer 6 at a time every time EXCEPT thier first meal when they come out of the cooling is 1 average sized mouse to get thier systems running again. Now for those who said 6 mice at a time?!?!?!?! Keep in mind in gram weight this meal would equal the same amount of food from 3 large mice....but in my experience it takes longer for them to digest the large mice and make a wider lump with scales being stretched as opposed to a nice belley full of small mice. Sometimes the females take all 6, and other times they dont. I let them chose what they want to eat and that's that. I have 25 adult snakes right now, only 1 has some fat deposits and it came from switching her up to rats after her second clutch last year........she is a monster of a Mexican Black King and she has taken 2 medium rats per meal a few times. Very large snake. Everything else looks perfect. All have serious muscle tone and are not fat at all. My egg production is always great and I have seen less than 10 slugs out of roughly 400 eggs. I also feel double clutching is not something we decide. If the female is still a bit thin I put the male in anyway and after she gets nailed by him she is ready to eat, and eat a lot. They blow back up, lay second clutches and look fine afterwards. I made the mistake of not reintroducing a male to a corn last year and she laid a clutch of slugs....probably would have been another perfect clutch of eggs if I let him get her again. Not all of my snakes grew as rapidly as I expected. Some will only eat a little when offered a lot and they grow much slower. Other would eat a lot but did seem to gain too much weight so I cut them back to a skimpy diet. The best example in short was my Speckled Kings did not grow anywhere near as fast as my Brooksi. Those Specks had optimum set ups and may have become little fatties if I hadn;t cut back thier feeding but for most of other stuff....being MBKs, Thayeri, Brooksi, Gophers, Pines, Hondurans and Black MIlks they all eat like pigs and grow long and muscular as opposed to stout and obese. To sum it up you simply cannot expect a large clutch of eggs with all being fertile from a female not eating a lot of food. I am sure it happens but I think worrying about overfeeding a female during breeding season is not worth your thoughts, feed feed feed. Mater of fact I get confident my snakes are indeed gravid whe the female starts eating less, and even then I still offer them a mouse or two until they hit their pre egg laying shed. I do not see how some people can keep thier snakes on a minimalistic diet, breeding or not. In Brooksi I have seen babies I produced look too thin if they were not being fed at least 2 times a week. I was unfortunate enough to buy some Brooksi last year that arrived so thin and just depleted of nutrition that I had to feed them every 2 days for 2 weeks straight before they gained and kept weight on. Sorry to be so long winded. In closing I would like to hear about incidents when snakes were over fed and did die young...........I do not know anyone who has had this happen? Tom Stevens

Great post Tom.
I agree with YOU 100%.
Feeding is the key to egg production, period!
John Lassiter

>>Great post Tom.
>>I agree with YOU 100%.
>>Feeding is the key to egg production, period!
>>John Lassiter

The reason that I asked is this statement you made: "So these people were also less likely to have thier snakes set up with proper space and temps which contributes to the extra fat. "

I currently have my adult honduran milk (who is actually pretty darn small) in a BARRs 36X12 cage and wondered if it is too small for him.

Thanks.
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phflame

I am currently keeping 4 of my fave colubrids in Boaphile cages with 6 square foot of floorspace. The 4 snakes are a Mexican Black King, Sonoran Gopher, Honduran Milk and Brooks King. They're all females. I have the males in Rubbermaids and they are smaller but my logic is that the males spend a considerable amount of time in the Boaphiles every year too, not too mention they are not as large as the females. The Brooksi and Gopher males are due for an upgrade but in previous years I had all the snake breeding in Rubbermaids. Nice sized ones too. I understand many breeders use nothing but Rubbermaids and have healthy snakes and good egg production. However I myself saw the end results in the large cages as simply better for a few reasons. I like to use large boxes for egg laying spots, and also offer at least one hide spot if not two. The water dishes I use for my adults are used as a hide seeing they somehow get under the hollow bottom of them but the bowls are quite large too....roughly 10 sqaure inches. Imagine all that stuff in a rubbermaid? I mean I see pics of large snakes with their clutches in small containers and wonder how the snakes managed to lay without constantly being on top of and even turning the eggs? Lastly my fave thing about the large cages is that the actual courting and breeding was less stressed. My Honduran bolts at high speeds from one side to the next and then stops enticing the male with her eratic "look at me!" behavior. My Brooksi have a similar routine. In the large cages there's room for courtship with reduced stress, and when the females are doing their nest searching behavior it is also less stressed. Funny how the ideal spot to lay thier eggs is available and they go in and out of the box as if there's someplace better? I have even used two nesting boxes with different levels of moisture in the substrate to see how they react and they go in and out of both anyways LOL. When i mentioned the improper size of caging in the above post I was referring to say a 5 foot Hondo in a 20 gallon cage...that's fed very often and can be found in snake lovers homes where the reptile person only has one or two animals. Guys like myself with over 50 couldn't afford to stuff every snake like that...but anyway I am guessing most of us have seen or even own a snake with fat deposits. It ruins the appearance and can be problematic for the snake. Many keepers and breeders will say " they just don't need all that room", and I am not saying they are wrong. I will say that if possible I think the more room the better for adults. Hatchlings do better in small cages but adults seem better off in big cages. I am also a Pit fan and think those awesome snakes have a bad rep for being mean because some are kept in cages that are too small for them. I have my largest Pine in a 45 gallon aquarium and I know she appreciates the height of the cage as well as the fllor space even though Pines are not arboreal at all. I think she simply needs her space. For the record I have a lot fo snakes in rubbermaids myself, but it is my goal to give every female and the larger males a minimum of 6 square foot in the future. Besides....the display cages really make me enjoy keeping them because most rubbermaids are translucent but not very clear for looking into. Some people think it's nuts to have a rather inexpensive snake like a Black King in a 200 dollar Boaphile. If I could afford it all my adults would be in similar cages....it really makes them more like pets instead of just breeders Tom Stevens

and to answer this more specifically

I currently have my adult honduran milk (who is actually pretty darn small) in a BARRs 36X12 cage and wondered if it is too small for him?

If your snake is small I think that's a great size cage. I would even think a snake up to between 3 to 4 foot would do fine in that size. Especially if the hot spot is on the far side and the temps are a good few degrees different on each end. That is an important part to snakes and digestion....which means a good running metabolism. Eat, chill, poop, eat some more LOL. Another thing that will help any snake stay healthy in general is ventilation. I am not too thrilled with the ventilation in the Boaphiles so I am going to drill some holes in one of the sides. Tom Stevens

Thanks for the info on feeding...

Can you also share info about how often you put the males and females together, and also whether you just keep them together for an hour or two at a time, or a full day, etc.

Last year I had a lot of slugs from my hondurans, as well as egg binding on several of them. I lost 2 females as a result of this. Just wondering if you had any thoughts on this subject...

>>Thanks for the info on feeding...
>>
>>Can you also share info about how often you put the males and females together, and also whether you just keep them together for an hour or two at a time, or a full day, etc.
>>
>>Last year I had a lot of slugs from my hondurans, as well as egg binding on several of them. I lost 2 females as a result of this. Just wondering if you had any thoughts on this subject...
>>

Paul,

I hope you kept that one! Or is it available?

Dan.
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"Colubrid-aphilia", adj; An inordinate love of Colubrids.

This is her sister, a really nice pinner. Unfortunately the mother is one of the animals that was eggbound and died.

.

WOW, that is a heartbreaker. She threw some extremely beautiful babies, that's for sure. That's as close to an all orange hypo as I've seen so far, very beautiful!

Did the remaining black spots get darker or lighter with age? I noticed the pics are from last fall, was curious what it looked like as it grows up.

Sorry to hear about your loss.

Dan.
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"Colubrid-aphilia", adj; An inordinate love of Colubrids.

The remainding bands have pretty much stayed the same. There's another picture of her on my website:

http://www.carolinaherps.com/colubrids.html

It's also from last fall though. Will try to post a recent pic soon.

Paul

Please keep me in mind if you ever for any reason decide to let this one go, though I don't blame you if you keep her, I sure would have. Absolutely beautiful snake!
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"Colubrid-aphilia", adj; An inordinate love of Colubrids.

Well I have read many people put females in the male cages but since my females are in the larger cages I put the males in with the females. If I do have other animals breeding in smaller containers I don't even pay much attention. I actually take into consideration if one cage needs cleaning or if a water bowl was spilled...things like that. I have not yet produced Hondos. I too got shot down last year.....a few slugs and one kinked baby I had to freeze. The pair was roughly 2 years old and that's what may have been the problem. I did not let it discourage me...I bought 5 more in 04 because I really love these Hondos. I brumate all my snakes, various colubrids....in my garage in central texas. I am very casual about this approach, I check temps daily but when it is warmer than I prefer I do not sweat it. I think for the most part temps are sufficient. In the case of egg binding...especially in Hondurans I honestly feel it happens to the best of us for reasons unknown. I have heard of the eggs coming out in many different sizes and shapes, which as far as other snakes go I honestly never hear of??? I think age is a factor, and the size of egg laying boxes too, as well as the size of the cage. As I mentioned I know some people who have great success working thier pairs inside small enclosures. Most people I speak too feel that age over length/weight is the most important issue in colubrids. Someone I really respect tells me he has seen some snakes that threw slugs for even 2 or 3 seasons suddenly produce perfect clutch after clutch with no change at all in the aspects of husbandry? Most of us would not try that,,,,,if a pair did not work out and had the female lay slugs we'd switch males. Even though mine failed the mission last year I am still going to breed the same pair. Another thing worth mentioning is that I had an additional female, she was just as large as the first. My male would go after female #1 instantly EVERY time they were introduced. However if I put him in with female #2 he would not do a damn thing. This leads back to my talk about how snakes will do what they want to do. We can do what we can to optimise conditions for them to be in the mood, but nature will tell each individual animal what's best for it. In other words if you saw how large and husky female #2 was you'd definitely have said....man she looks ready. Yet she decided it was not the case. Even the male somehow knew she was not down with breeding. I guess pheremones are truly released at the females will...and it just does not happen on its own? Not sure about that but it's my guess for now. I just think, when speaking in general about perfect conditions.....the extra space you offer the female will be appreciated and simply reduce stress. The Boaphiles are black, so they're dark. There's no light that gets in from above. I feel even that affects the stress level because sometimes a snake will retreat to the back corner when I reach in to change water and they're not half as defensive as when you lift the lid of a container or pull one out of a rack. Ever see a snake just ram full speed into the corner of a cage? Man when that nose hits I cringe. In closing I will say that some of my full grown males will be fine in a large container for thier entire lives, but seeing the females are the snakes who really have a "job" to do, they need...or better said can benefit from a few extra modifications like extra space, extra hides, and a set up leaving them feeling less exposed. I have seen a gravid snake bolt in a panic and throw its body from one side of a cage to another....Do I know anything bad happened? No I don't....but I much prefer them as relaxed as possible in hopes the eggs in her align properly for easy laying. Tom Stevens

my females tend to follow a pattern: some lay small clutches--every year--and others lay large clutches--every year. There is no consistent correlation between size and number of eggs/clutch, in my experience. (Key word consistent.) The largest clutch i ever got was from a very large female, but i have another very large female that consistently lays small 5-6 egg clutches. I'll be interested in seeing what experiences others report having.
terry