Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I don’t want to pick on this person individually but this is another thing that happens to be a pet peeve of mine….. When the heck did we move from being herpers to being scientists? The last big snake show I went to, I did not see one white lab coat, no microscopes or DNA analyses machines (if there is such a thing). What I did see is a large amount of mostly large tattooed men that looked kinda of scary with tattooed women on their arms with nice boob jobs….. Ok maybe I was looking into a mirror at the time, but you get what I mean.

I don’t see a great deal of us as the scientific type. Yes I can recite genetic principles better then most biology teachers, yes I can use the fancy Latin names for many snakes and make people think that I am more educated then I am and yes I have more reptile knowledge floating around in my head then most professors who teach Herpology (if that is a word LOL) But I am by no means a scientist!

Like most of us head I am a blue collar working dude that happens to have a hobby that freaks most people out. I have studied my hobby since I was 15 years old (that’s twenty-four years for you other non-scientific types) so I have accumulated a great deal of information. I use this information to make “completely unscientific assumptions” about my animals. I have happened to travel a bit herping and plan on doing so once a year, but I won’t ever collect my own Boas from the wilds of Suriname or Colombia. So I will always have to make that “completely unscientific assumption” about the locality of my boa constrictors.

But based on this information, we don’t really no if our Colombian Boas are Colombian, If our Nics are Nics, Where our Albinos and Hypos really came from and does anyone really no if there ever was any Boas on Hog’s Island? Have you seen them there before they were extinct? Well for that matter, how many of us here have ever really seen with our own two eyes Boas in South America, not on TV but in person? Do Boas really exist there at all, maybe they are really from Canada and this entire thing has been a “completely unscientific assumption” on our parts, those dang Canadians can be sneaky you know!

My point to this entire rant is GET A GRIP PEOPLE! At some point we all have to realize is that we are just your normal working folks, some breed professionally, some are, Teachers, Cops, Bikers, living on disability, construction workers, bankers, rock stars, and there may even be a scientist or two out there, but I doubt that they are arguing over the true locality of there boas. At some point in time you have to trust someone on where your animals came from and then you will also have to realize that nobody really gives a crap that we make “completely unscientific assumptions” about them. If you are a breeder with a good reputation and an honest person, that is good enough for most, the rest of the argument is just there for the sake of arguing and that is “completely unscientific behavior”

Just thought I would chime in with my cent and a half.
-----
Jim Hopkins "Hoppy"
Hopkins Holesale Herps
Hopfam1@aol.com

real education or field work. Assumptions aren't good enough , I want facts. If you don't have the facts then don't try to pawn your half-arse theory on the rest of us as fact. I'm done with this argument, nobody has been able to bring any new information to the table, just a bunch of their own theories with no factual information to back it up!

And you'd think in all these years of the same arguement someone would've solved the problem-LOL! I think your both correct, it seems to be a topic of arguement rather than conversation. I just love the way people try to preach it one way or another as if having a make believe degree in Geography makes them smarter than the next guy! I have a globe in my snake room, I must really be smart-LOL! I want to argue about dumerils boas now...are they really found on Reunion? According to a couple different articles I've read they are. If so, I wonder if they're actually different but were both called Acrantophis Dumerili(now B. Dumerili, thanks to Kluge-that extra info there made me look smarter huh-lol) to allow us hobbyist to have a new arguement in the future! So, from now on my Dumerils are all from Reunion, not Madagascar, and I employ people to prove me wrong-LMAO!!! Charles I have to say, you have some of the best looking BCC I've seen no matter what side of the border they came from-lol! Take care

Paul

Well, they're pretty much crap/useless. I agree with charles that we use these names of boas (i.e. surinam, or guyanese etc.) for marketing purposes and so that a well informed buyer has some "image," shaped by the hobby as to what his boa may look like. However, no matter how well a breeder may have kept track of his lines and where they oriniginated from, their validity as a locality specimen will always be questioned. Even wild caught imports are pretty much useless as far as a researcher is concerned...for instance, I was going to work on the systematics of erycine boas, but without vouchered specimens (collected by university/musuem expiditions and preserved with locality data) I couldn't do the project, even with the words of trusted importers telling me a certain snake was collected here, or there...their word just wasn't enough. I think people should keep and appreciate snakes for the subtle (and not so subtle) beauty they each have...none of these animals will ever be used to re-seed wild populations or be used for inclusion in a species survival studbook, just for our own viewing pleasure...

just my two cents...

cheers,
gabriel

>>real education or field work. Assumptions aren't good enough , I want facts. If you don't have the facts then don't try to pawn your half-arse theory on the rest of us as fact. I'm done with this argument, nobody has been able to bring any new information to the table, just a bunch of their own theories with no factual information to back it up!

Who's to say a herpetologist HAS to have a degree? There's many people out there who cannot afford degrees, and instead self-study everything they can. I'm sure some of them are just as knowledgable (if not more, because they can keep up-to-date with information) as someone with a degree that is more than likely outdated by the time they graduate.

Theories are just that, theories. They aren't fact. They are thought up, ideas, things to be pondered and turned into either fact or fiction. Theories are made to be shared with other people, so that others who might know can either back them up with facts or show them as false, and that others who have never thought of such a theory might look into it as well.

-Clara
-----
Lower Ground Reptiles

www.lowergroundreptiles.net

When they arrest me , I'll tell them... I can't afford the schooling ? But I read alot of books, and have done my own research. Either you are qualified or you're not...Think about your logic.

>>When they arrest me , I'll tell them... I can't afford the schooling ? But I read alot of books, and have done my own research. Either you are qualified or you're not...Think about your logic.

The medical profession is quite a bit different. Same with veterinary surgery. Its pretty stupid to compare herpetology to either one.
-----
Lower Ground Reptiles

www.lowergroundreptiles.net

herpetology,
scientific study of amphibians and reptiles. Like most other fields of vertebrate biology (e.g., ichthyology, mammalogy), herpetology is composed of a number of cross-disciplines: behaviour, ecology, physiology, anatomy, paleontology, taxonomy, and others.

People talk without knowing what they are talking about. It's pretty stupid for someone to think that herpetology, medical and veterinary work do not relate.

Like I said before, knowing what temperature to keep you boas in does not make you a herpetologists. The stupid one is the one that opens his mouth and does not know what they are talking about.

"someone with a degree that is more than likely outdated by the time they graduate".

Chances are a person with a degree will be able to understand "genetics" ten times better than someone who is self taught. By genetics I don't mean knowing that an albino is a boa that contains no black, but knowing how and why it happens. After all it's not just a cool looking snake, it's an abnormal boa. I guess you have also dissected a snake and have taught yourself the complete anatomy of a boa like biology students do at Berkeley. I’m sure you know the difference of a primitive and advanced species of boas. Knowing what temperature to keep a boa does not make you an expert.

If I ever meet someone who thinks they may have a boa with an infection or IBD I’ll just save them some money and recommend they see someone who has read a book and not a vet. which went to school and probably doesn’t know what he is doing since what he learned is probably outdated.

>>"someone with a degree that is more than likely outdated by the time they graduate".
>>
>>Chances are a person with a degree will be able to understand "genetics" ten times better than someone who is self taught. By genetics I don't mean knowing that an albino is a boa that contains no black, but knowing how and why it happens. After all it's not just a cool looking snake, it's an abnormal boa. I guess you have also dissected a snake and have taught yourself the complete anatomy of a boa like biology students do at Berkeley. I’m sure you know the difference of a primitive and advanced species of boas. Knowing what temperature to keep a boa does not make you an expert.
>>
>>If I ever meet someone who thinks they may have a boa with an infection or IBD I’ll just save them some money and recommend they see someone who has read a book and not a vet. which went to school and probably doesn’t know what he is doing since what he learned is probably outdated.

A veterinarian is NOT the same thing as a herpetologist. Why is herpetology being compared to human medicine or veterinary studies? Nice cheap shots, guys...

So by your comparisons, you are telling me someone who has owned reptiles for over 30 years, and who does their own reptile surgery, veterinary work (injections, fecals, diagnosis) and research (both by speaking with other reptile owners, scientists, and field researchers), yet who does not have a piece of paper stating the person has a degree in herpetology does not know what he or she is doing?
-----
Lower Ground Reptiles

www.lowergroundreptiles.net

Yes and no.

In a way you contradict yourself. You state “A veterinarian is NOT the same thing as a herpetologist”. Then you say “reptile surgery, veterinary work (injections, fecals, diagnosis) and research (both by speaking with other reptile owners, scientists, and field researchers)”. Which you practice but are not part of being a herpetologists.

Like I said, yes and no. In CA, vets. are required to consistently update their training. They don’t read or do research when they feel like it. Also, just because you have performed a surgery doesn’t make you a professional. In a way it is careless since I am sure you mostly use over the counter medicines, unless you obtain them illegally since you don’t have a license.

If you ever read up on plastic surgery and have some successful operations in Miami, give me a call.

>>Yes and no.
>>
>>In a way you contradict yourself. You state “A veterinarian is NOT the same thing as a herpetologist”. Then you say “reptile surgery, veterinary work (injections, fecals, diagnosis) and research (both by speaking with other reptile owners, scientists, and field researchers)”. Which you practice but are not part of being a herpetologists.
>>
>>Like I said, yes and no. In CA, vets. are required to consistently update their training. They don’t read or do research when they feel like it. Also, just because you have performed a surgery doesn’t make you a professional. In a way it is careless since I am sure you mostly use over the counter medicines, unless you obtain them illegally since you don’t have a license.
>>
>>If you ever read up on plastic surgery and have some successful operations in Miami, give me a call.

I don't remember ever saying anything about someone who knows what they are doing, but who doesn't have a piece of paper with a degree on it, saying they are a herpetologist. I'm just saying that there are a lot of people out there who know quite a bit.
-----
Lower Ground Reptiles

www.lowergroundreptiles.net

You are very correct. Now my question to you is..... How many people out there would meet your expectations? I'm sure that you will agree with me... there are many persons out there saying they consider themselves as knowledgeable as a "properly' trained herpetologists, which we know is bull. There are numerous people out there with tons of knowledge from information gathered but not many of maybe, your caliber or that of Peter Kahl or Herpetologists Dave and Tracy Barker.

>>You are very correct. Now my question to you is..... How many people out there would meet your expectations? I'm sure that you will agree with me... there are many persons out there saying they consider themselves as knowledgeable as a "properly' trained herpetologists, which we know is bull. There are numerous people out there with tons of knowledge from information gathered but not many of maybe, your caliber or that of Peter Kahl or Herpetologists Dave and Tracy Barker.

The problem is, its so hard to tell who knows what they are talking about anymore. We have people selling nicaraguan boas as cay caulkers, and many people don't know the difference. Those of us who do know the difference can easily point out the difference between the two, but its up to the person selling the boas to change the ad.

I'm nowhere near as knowledgeable as Kahl or the Barkers, but it would be nice if I knew what they knew!
-----
Lower Ground Reptiles

www.lowergroundreptiles.net

Someone above made an excellent point. Nobody trains today to be a herpetologist. People are in diverse fields such as systematics, behavioral ecology, functional morphology etc. Herps just happen to be the model organism for a great deal of researchers. Think of it this way, is the person studying behavioral ecology of bushmasters more of a herpetologist than a medical researcher who uses Xenopus neuroethology to answer questions about brains. In general, researchers today are much more question oriented than taxon oriented. In other words, whatever organism is best suited to answering the broader question in general is the organism that's used. In my own research, I'm interested in the evolution of morphological diversity and the role of constraint in shaping diversity...I use the independent evolution of limblessness found in so many herps to answer many of my questions regarding evolutionary patterns and processes...While I have always loved herps, took herpetology in college and subsequently have taught the course, and perform 99% of my research on a myriad array of herps, I consider myself an evolutionary biologist first and "herpetologist" only in the most broad sense...

Additonally, someone foolishly mentioned the idea that by the time someone finishes receiveing their degree, they are probaly antiquated and of little use...this is ridiculous, any researcher, whether a vet, doctor, academic, what-have-you is constantly updating themselves on the current literature.

Lastly, I think many people who are well read on herps are simply well read herpetoculturists. The majority of papers in peer reviewed journals pertaining to herps, like Copeia and Journal of Herpetology are of little or no use to the herpetoculturist interested in maintaining and breeding his charges. Interestingly, though, the topic of debate here recently, regarding taxonomy and systematics of Boa Constrictors is certainly something that could potentially warrant further research. I have thought it would be very interesting to perform a molecular phylogenetic study of boa constrictors in North and South America...for what it's worth, I think boas from the guyana shield (our surinam and guyana boas) would certainly fall out into a monophyletic group...I think the problem people are having on this board is simply a matter of scale (no pun intended). On the broadest level, boas are boas and there is certainly gene flow between populations of boas in surinam and guyana. But certainly, however, populations of boas whether in surinam or guyana have accumulated distinct genetic differences...in other words, both sides are probably correct from a scientific point of view...If I used mitochondrial DNA for a population based study of boa constrictors (mtDNA is relatively rapidly evolved compared to nuclear DNA) then I would probably conclude that the boas in the two regions are "different." If however, I were to use the slower nuclear markers (these don't accumulate genetic differences as quickly as mtDNA) for a broader based study of the place of Boas within the broader family as a whole, I might conclude that all boas in northern south america are the same. Anyway, this is all conjecture...my point is to demonstrate that we may simply be looking on a different scale...sure boas are boas, but each boa is genetically uniqe from all others...

just my 2 cents...
gabriel

I apologize for coming off a little aggressive. I applaud the amount of research you have done, but unfortunately not everybody posting their opinions on this topic have gone half the extent as you.

“I” don’t claim to be a herpetologist. I consider myself a novice or more of a hobbyist. This may not include you, but a person that has read 20 “How to keep a boa” books does not make them a herpetologists or as knowledgeable as one.

>>I apologize for coming off a little aggressive. I applaud the amount of research you have done, but unfortunately not everybody posting their opinions on this topic have gone half the extent as you.
>>
>>“I” don’t claim to be a herpetologist. I consider myself a novice or more of a hobbyist. This may not include you, but a person that has read 20 “How to keep a boa” books does not make them a herpetologists or as knowledgeable as one.

Its not a problem. I appreciate hearing other people's views, but I also like to share my own.

I don't claim to be a herpetologist, but I do know quite a bit more than the average "snake owner" and feel I am at least intermediate level. I do most of my own veterinary work, with the exception of major surgery. I was taught how to do injections, wound care, oral medications, and more by my veterinarian. Do I consider myself a vet? No, considering I only know very little.

I know several people, who if their state or city had a college or university which provided a degree in herpetology, could easily pass the class by just taking the final.

Unfortunately, not every educational institution finds herpetology to be something they want included in their programs, so not all of us are lucky to have such a place to get a degree from. (Not to mention there are lots of them who can't just get up and move to a city/state where they can get a degree.)

There's one more thing that I can think about too. Many people would rather invest their time and money into their herps, rather than in getting a degree just to "prove" they know what they are doing. These people believe in themselves, not a piece of paper.

I've been a college student for a few years now. I've seen professors who don't know what they are teaching, but I've also seen the opposite. Sometimes the person with the degree stating they are "insert profession here" still doesn't know squat. Don't get me started on how much cheating goes on, either.
-----
Lower Ground Reptiles

www.lowergroundreptiles.net

No offense Chaoscat, but I don’t think you have any idea what is involved in getting a Ph.D. You make medicine out to be distinctly different than Herpetology. Why? Medicine is one of the shortest doctorate degrees one can obtain and admits far more applicants than other doctorate programs. Most other doctorates require an average of 6 years (post bachelor’s degree) to complete. Many things learned in graduate school such as advanced research methods and advanced statistics do not become quickly outdated as you implied. Many Ph.D.s don’t even work in their given fields because their knowledge is so valued by other industries. Many end up as consultants for government agencies, think tanks, consultant firms and other private industries. The day you meet someone who is self taught conducting research for the CIA or for a major university will never come. Show me a self taught person with tenure at a research university or a 7 digit government research grant. No one should be belittled for not having certain levels of formal education, but please, please do not belittle those of us who have spent countless hours and effort obtaining our degrees. My department was recently awarded 7 million dollars in grant money! It is ridicules to suggest that this type of money is given to us just because we have a “sheet of paper” as you stated.

...start making sense. Sense is not what this whole debate is about. It is about whose opinion was "more better" than someone elses. And then you go and bring some reality into this whole thing. Shame on you!

-----
Derek Roberts
Sonoran Reptile Breeders
sonoranreptile@cox.net

You are completely correct. I have even seen breeders argue with the real scientists (biologists). The whole hypo gene is a good example. The gene expresses its self every time it is present thus making it dominant, not co-dominant, like brown eyes in humans. If one parent is a normal and the other parent a hypo the resulting hypo offspring are Hets (heterogeneous just means different as in two different genes). Yet so many will argue until they die that are no Het hypos. Another funny one is the phrase “proven genetic.” If a parent passes traits to its offspring then those traits are genetic (carried in the genes). Therefore selective line breeding still makes for “genetic” traits. There are many other examples of herpers changing the meaning of terms. Oh well. By the way I am one of those doctorate scientists, but I would much rather be one of the rock stars Hoppy eludes to : ) However, by no means am I a biologist.

Good post.
I am somewhere between science and hobbyist. Still much more of a hobbyist, than scientist, but I have been keeping reptiles for 22 or 23 years now, and studying of and on my entire life for my own edification. I see the point Hoppy is trying to make, but I think our willingness and eagerness to experience wonder and adventure (or "take the leap," should be tempered by cool clear logic and science.
Both sides have their place.
I love this hobby.
-----
Jeremy J. Anderson
snakepimp.com
gemstatereptiles.com
Of course it's my opinion, I said it, didn't I?
Breeding season is always just around the corner....JOY!!!

...it's, "alludes, " not eludes."
That is a tricky near-homonym, but any time I can correct a Phd., I pretty much have to. I am a High-School dropout, so I suppose it's a self-esteem issue, I don't know for sure, but I am a word 'Nazi'at every turn regardless of the reasons.
I am sure your degree is not in English, given the obvious allusion made by your screen name. So, are you in Psychology, or Psychiatry? Or do you work in your studied field at all?
Thanks for the cheap shot opportunity, no hard feelings, I respect the overall content of your post.

Here's an Argentine of mine, just to keep this somewhat on topic:

-----
Jeremy J. Anderson
snakepimp.com
gemstatereptiles.com
Of course it's my opinion, I said it, didn't I?
Breeding season is always just around the corner....JOY!!!

.
-----
Jeremy J. Anderson
snakepimp.com
gemstatereptiles.com
Of course it's my opinion, I said it, didn't I?
Breeding season is always just around the corner....JOY!!!

BCI and not BCC. LOL!

I think about 95% of the opinions posted on this forum are
colored by business interests, dollars & time invested.

This place has changed a lot in the past 5 years...

TGIF Boa Lovers!!
tc

I have to say I both agree and disagree with the previous statements made. Out of all the people that have posted, how many have been to Columbia, Argentina or Suriname? Was anybody here born with the knowledge of these animals? Most information used today is information that has been given to us by professional researchers. I don't think it was a biker that came up with the terms BCC or BCI that everybody uses. I don't think it was a biker or rock star that was the first to have a successful breeding in captivity. Everything everyone knows about keeping and breeding boas was originally started by a "professional". Now, I'm not saying they perfected it, everybody has had a hand in making it better, but they sparked the flame. Now most of us including myself have studied boas extensively, but does that make us experts? No way! Let me explain, if somehow someone came across a purple, green and gold boa, chances are (a person like myself) people would not know where to start (maybe here). Now say, Dave and Tracy Barker come across the same animal, the have the knowledge to study the animal (I'm sure they also have many more resources than the rock star), make a hypothesis on locality and genes and most likely be correct. Can you make a hypothesis, sure you can but it will most likely be based on the type of animal you own. You may know everything about a Columbian Boa but chances are you know very little about other 1,000's of fauna and flora in Columbia. Now, I’m not completely on the other side of the argument, I keep boas because…. I think they are beautiful animals and just love them. But I think everyone should keep this in mind. Without the professional scientists, the biologists, herpetologists, etc… and without the growing number of people that have grown to love reptiles and have made efforts towards self education (bikers and rock stars), we would not be anywhere near where we are now. Don’t bash the other, chances are you practice or use something the came up with or innovated.