Reptile & Amphibian Forums

i have two sips in a ten gal. tempered glass tank. they have cocidia, hook and lung worms. After about a week the bottom level of gravel is full of water, so i siphon it out, i used to dump this in the back yard. But is that safe? I don't want to take a chance and put it in the toilet. Perhaps in a remote area, far away from people, but i also worry about the wild animals. anyone???

You could always add a cup of bleach to the bucket let sit for 15-20 minutes and then pour it down the toilet.
Coccidia is pretty endemic in many species of anurans depenind on the species and types the hook and lung worms are more problomatic. Both of these have direct life cycles and can cause severe infections in captive frogs as the frogs can be continually reinfected.

Ed

I dumped some alcohol in the bucket i use to empty the built up water from the tank and i could see there was like this convulsing rapid movement in the waste water, after about 15-20 seconds later, it stopped. It was really strange. I'm guessing that was the parasites. Do you think bleach or alcohol is better to kill them?
I read that in certain stages of the life of coccida it can not be killed by cleaners.
So if treated correctly my frogs can be worm free?

What you probably saw was the concentration gradient of the alcohol mixing into the water.

One cup of bleach to a gallon of water will readily kill coccidia. The only time that a disinfectant will not work is if you have a ton of organics in the water. At that point you may need to increase the concentration of bleach to ensure that the parasites are all destroyed.
Coccidia is treatable but may not be curable. The only way to determine if the coccidia is gone is via biopsy but in most frogs coccidia is not a problem and the frogs live long happy reproductive lives.

The other parasites should be able to be eliminated with the assistance of some good quarantine procedures and a treatment regimen (see your vet.....)

Ed

You are worried about harming wild populations but how is a bunch of bleach and alcohol being dumped down the drain going to do any good? Is it likely that these infestations are foreign or would they have been from local areas (import frogs vs dirt from the back yard) If you are quite sure these parasites have not been carried in from south america with the frogs then dispersing them into the sewage system is fine. If in doubt, or if you really do not want to release any of these parasites, then an environmentally sound way is to freeze the water(30days would be more than enough) or boil the water (15minutes is lots)
Ideally, if you had a fire pit in the backyard, you'd boil it on top of that, then use the water to dowse the flames. That way you could get some marshmellow roas'n in

Good luck with your frogs; and after reading this post the above one about medicine makes a bit more sense. Use any prescriptions as prescribed by your veterinarian very carefully.

That sure makes sense to me.
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Patty
Pahsimeroi, Idaho

4 D. auratus blue
5 D. galactonotus pumpkin orange splash back
5 D. imitator
6 D. leucomelas
4 D. pumilio Bastimentos
4 D. fantasticus
4 P. terribilis
4 D. reticulatus
4 D. castaneoticus

Except that freezing will not affect many protozoal parasites, bacteria or fungus like chytrid.

Sewage systems are set-up to deal with some bleach (otherwise we would not be allowed to pump the water from a washer into it).

Ed

Are you saying that the hook and lung worms from south america are quite different than those found around here? On coccida I did read in the oocysts stage they resist freezing. (but i don't know how long that is) I have two frogs with these. Two others i had tested were free of any parasites. and then six others are not yet tested.
But the vet never made it clear to me that the frogs can become free of the hook and lung worms. He gave me Panacur and said to give every 7-10 days. he never said in so long.... have it tested again.
SO is it safe or even wise to give Panacur to all my frogs weekly?

Often the parasites are different species as each parasite is sort of specialized to live in a specific range of hosts (this does not mean that they cannot colonize new species).

As for treatment, we usually treat the frogs once a week for two weeks and then recheck the fecals and retreat again after than if necessary.
With the lungworms if these are Rhabditis, then the frogs will need to placed into a clean cage after each treatment as this genus of nematodes produces both free living and infectious larva. The free living ones can produce infectious larva as well as free living larva allowing for continued reinfection and potentially superinfections. Lungworms can be difficult to clear in anurans.

Ed

As per the south american parasites being different, I am only guessing.
This is an educated guess however since species with such a large range are rarely the same throughout. There are many species of hookworm, roundworm, lungworm ect. I also imagine there are many different sub-species and localities.
The concern is that even if the south american strains are very similar, they may be different enough where the acquired immunity does not exist in native amphibian populations.

As far as freezing affecting fungus such as chytrid (This particular problem was not brought up yet), I am not certain. Freezing for 30 days should take care of the other parasites. This is extrapolated from studies on freezing rodent prey items to kill parasites. 30 days was deemed sufficient.
If still not comfortable with freezing, then the boiling for 15 minutes is suggested for making water safe to drink and also is very close to what goes on in an autoclave for sterilization.

Snip "Freezing for 30 days should take care of the other parasites. This is extrapolated from studies on freezing rodent prey items to kill parasites. 30 days was deemed sufficient.
If still not comfortable with freezing, then the boiling for 15 minutes is suggested for making water safe to drink and also is very close to what goes on in an autoclave for sterilization"

Okay, so the person in question will need to freeze the water from the tank for a minimum of 30 days before they can dispose of it? Otherwise the freezing will probably not affect the parasites to any great degree. This seems to be extremly impractical as well as a potential human health risk for contamination of food products. (By the way, the freezing of food items is mainly in relation to prey items that are wild caught, cb prey items should be clean unless they are contaminated by wild animals)(for a good review check out Reptile Care, An Atlas of Diseases and Treatments).
In addition freezing will also not affect ant pathnogenic bacteria, many species of parasitic amoeba (the cysts are very resistant to freezing) as well as cryptosporidia, coccidia or other protozoal parasites.

Boiling for 15 minutes is not close to what occurs in an autoclave as autoclaves operate under higher pressure which increases the effectiveness of the steam. It would be similar if a pressure cooker was used.

Chlorine is a commonly used disinfectant for the purposes that the person asked about and bleach is a stable provider of chlorine for this purpose. After the 15 minute contact time, the person can use an inexpensive aquarium dechlorinator to neutralize the bleach before disposing of it down the drain.

Ed

The pressure is used to penetrate surgical packs and wrapping. The boiling water is suffecient.

I'm not about to assume what is practical for this individual. Take my info as it comes. I'm educated on the matter, but am not a proffesional parasitologist, of which, I do not see one in this forum.

Actually, that is part of the function but is not the method by which it works.
The prevention of the steam escaping in an autoclave allows the temperature to reach levels that are unattainable in an open boiling pot. This temperature is what kills the spores and other pathogens. This is why pressure cookers are used in canning to prevent the growth of mycobateria such as botulism (note the steam does not penetrate the sealed jar or can). This is the same reason that autoclaves are used to prepare sterilized broth cultures (which are sealed so the steam cannot penetrate the lid) and food such as cans of soup. When you simply boil something the temperature of the pot is limited to the temperature at which water boils as the steam carries off energy from the system keeping the temperature within a range determined by atmospheric pressure and dissolved materials (which can be readily calculated see any Physical Chemistry Text). This is why boiling is not used to sterilize items that are being canned (unless they have a very high sugar and/or acid content to prevent bacterial growth (a form of pickling) as the temperatures are insufficient to sterilize the materials.

snip "Take my info as it comes. I'm educated on the matter, but am not a proffesional parasitologist, of which, I do not see one in this forum."

I am also educated on the matter and have been dealing with and assisting in the treatment of parasites in anurans and dart frogs for over 13 years now as the Amphibian Keeper and Lead Keeper for a Zoological Institution. I worked with Dr. Kevin Wright for over six years (one of the author/editors for Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry) and witnessed many treatment regimens as well as multiple disinfection protocols when it comes to parasitological treatments. One does not need to be a professional parasitologist to be able to give correct and concise information.

Ed

The last thing I wanted to do is question other people's education, or imply that I was smarter in this area then you; just to imply that I am not the typical dummy regurgitating what he heard from some website or other. But, perhaps I am, as after rereading my post it does sound a little misleading.

Gas sterilization is achieved with temperatures of 121.5C or about 250F. 15kpa of pressure is used to achieve this. As you so generously pointed out, boiling water will only reach 100C. I still believe you will acheive the desired affect with your parasites with boiling water, but if still concerned you can use a pressure cooker which won't reach the 121.5C but will be closer.

Now if anyone has still missed my point, I was merely suggesting other options as to spilling chemicals into the sewage system.

If you gurus still disagree, that is fine and I humbly will stand by my advice in good conscience.

thanks so much for being so helpful!

i thank you, so very much -amanda!

I would simply dump the water down the toilet. The vast majority of sewage treatment plants are more than capable of handling a little coccidia and parasitic worms. After all, the raw sewage flowing through the pipes probably has a good concentration of Botulisim and other worse things.
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Currently
2.0 F. silvestris (NFO)
1.1 F. pardalis (Ambilobe)
0.0.3 D. tinctorius (Suriname Cobalt)
0.0.3 D. tinctorius (Weygoldt)
0.0.~100 E. prosticus

I at first considered this as well. However I have no idea how sewage is treated, or the variance from big city to small town. I also assume that the water is treated more stringently on the way into the house then it is on the way out.
It never hurts to play things on the safe side and I'm sure this thread offers lots of good information for those that choose too

In addition the ability to treat also depends if there is a rain or snow melt event as many wastewater plants overload resulting in discharge of raw sewage.

Ed

Chlorine, as in diluted Clorox dissipates rapidly. It is one of the safest sanitizers to use before dumping down the sink or toilet. A 2% Clorox solution kills a lot of germs, perhaps not all resistant spores and such, but it is about the safest and most effective sanitizer I know of. We wipe down our microbiology counters with it, but have to make up new solutions daily, because once diluted from the Clorox bottle, it rapidly becomes ineffective. Of all of the other chemicals that are dumped into the environment down the sink or toilet, it is probably the least dangerous compared to its effective use.
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Patty
Pahsimeroi, Idaho

4 D. auratus blue
5 D. galactonotus pumpkin orange splash back
5 D. imitator
6 D. leucomelas
4 D. pumilio Bastimentos
4 D. fantasticus
4 P. terribilis
4 D. reticulatus
4 D. castaneoticus

That makes sense since chlorine is what they put into the drinking water and letting tap water sit for 24 hours supposedly allows all the chlorine to evaporate. Is clorox bleach? I'm unfamiliar with the brand name.

In short yes.
Bleach is actually sodium hypochlorite. Ift functions in the same way as chlorine does.

Ed

Ed, that reminds me of an instance when we were having a laboratory inspection. When the lab inspector asked me what we were using for disinfecting the counters, I told him Clorox. He said that wasn't good enough, we should be buying sodium hypochlorite and recommended a laboratory product that cost about $20.00 a gallon instead of the $2.00 we were paying for Clorox. We had a heck of a time convincing him that it was the same thing. If I recall correctly, both products are are 11% sodium hypochlorite. Then he complained because we didn't have an MDR sheet on Clorox in our safety manual, and should buy the other product because it came with one.

I forgot to mention in the former post, that the Clorox (Purex or whatever bleach brand) is more effective when diluted to about a 2% solution of the original 11% product--2 parts in 100. We used a 1:10 parts solution to "deproteinize" our serum chemical and whole blood count analyzer tubing, and had to do this every time we ran a batch of veterinarian specimens, especially horse serum, or our controls for the next human batch wouldn't come in.

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Patty
Pahsimeroi, Idaho

4 D. auratus blue
5 D. galactonotus pumpkin orange splash back
5 D. imitator
6 D. leucomelas
4 D. pumilio Bastimentos
4 D. fantasticus
4 P. terribilis
4 D. reticulatus
4 D. castaneoticus

When the Zoo I work for was getting ready for AZA inspection, we had to label all of the sprayers in the building as to the contents (all of which contained water at the time in my area). I labeled the bottle, dihydrogen oxide. The preinspector was one of the security people and he wrote our building up for not having a MSDS for dihydrogen oxide... I got called onto the carpet for being a rebel (not really in trouble but still a lecture to just do what I'm asked to do).
Its not only your facility, its like that everywhere.

Ed