Reptile & Amphibian Forums

SHORT VERSION:
The answer to your question is, “I don’t know”. If I had more experience with this stuff, I might have a different answer. The whole situation with the female Motley has been a little weird for me, so I chose to write about it in detail. Perhaps my experience can help someone else who is learning as I am, or encourage response from those who are experienced. If you want to forego the long version, I’ll tell you now, my answer at the end of it is the same as the short version - “I don’t know” and “probably not”.

LONG VERSION:
Last June, my male Motley “Murphy” began showing interest in the female Motley “Missy”. They are littermates I bought from Jeremy Stone, and as such, I have kept them together since they were babies. When it became apparent he was seriously courting her, I spoke with Jeremy about what I should do. *I* being a controlling human, wanted her to breed late fall or this winter sometime. (Stupid human that I am, I thought Murphy was just being frisky - never imagining she would be maturing follicles that early.) Jeremy’s advice was to take him away from her, telling me that Murphy would wear himself out by beginning courting that early, and put them back together in the fall.

I left them apart until early August when I put him back in just “for fun” to see what he would do. Again, he began courting furiously, so I relented, and left him with her. Around mid-August, she developed a swollen area in her mid-section. It looked like a boa might, after a large meal - except it wasn’t. It was slightly lower than her stomach and it stayed right there.

On September 3, I took her to my vet for an ultrasound. We had a very hard time seeing anything due to a large black appearing area my vet thought might be gas. We scanned her all over with the probe and in some areas we thought we saw some sizeable follicles. I should have had x-rays done then, but I didn’t. At that same visit, some of my other females had follicles as small as .5 cent and other female’s were as large as 1.5 cent in size - (except the Hog Island, who had huge follicles. I don’t think we even measured them, but they were probably around 3-4 cent. Here again, I had no idea she would do that so soon. I had done nothing to encourage this and had not had a male with her – except for once, briefly, when I was rearranging enclosures. This was waaay earlier than she was breedable the year before.)

Back to Missy – I brought her home and put her back with Murphy. They continued courting/breeding activities I witnessed copulation on various occasions. The lump in her lower mid-section stayed as it was.

On October 1, I took her for more ultrasounds. We still could not get a clear picture, so we took x-rays. The x-rays showed some large follicles grouped together (the swollen area). They were pressed together in a mass, but you could see the outlines of each one. I have jpgs of these x-rays if anyone is interested in seeing them. I brought her home. Murphy continued to show interest for a short time and then abruptly stopped. I took him out after it became clear he was not interested.

All during the remainder of the fall and this winter, I have put him with her every couple of weeks just to see his reaction. Each time, he cruises around for a little while investigating her, and then comes back to the door and wants out.

I have never seen what I have come to recognize as an ovulation - even a small one, like from one ovary.

On February 11, we ultrasounded her again, this time the pictures were clearer, but we did more x-rays so we could better see what was happening. It appears that a group of follicles have moved into a line (like they might appear in an oviduct) and more follicles are still grouped at the fore-end (like they haven’t moved down yet). They still look about the same size as before - only in a different position.

We thought (before the x-rays) that she may be reabsorbing infertile ova, and she may be. However, they are still very round and they don’t look like they are being reabsorbed by the body. Missy’s lump has disappeared and I’m guessing it is because many of the follicles have moved into a line.

I am totally stumped on this. I have never seen an ovulation or POS with her. So, I am left wondering, could she be taking all this time to fertilize her follicles. I haven’t heard of a female boa taking this much time, but I suppose it is possible. I have heard stories of females retaining sperm for months (years?) and becoming gravid. I saw them breed - actually seeing penetration several times. I know Murphy is fertile (see Jessica below). I saw some of her babies yesterday in an ultrasound. (And, he bred another normal Colombian who just, very obviously, ovulated and is starting into her POS – her eyes are starting to cloud up tonight.)

Part of me thinks I probably missed her by taking him out last June when I did, but then if I did miss her, they wouldn’t have bred in August and September??? Part of me thinks she is just going to have a bunch of slugs, but don’t they still have an ovulation and a POS even if they end up with slugs? If she was going to expel slugs, she should have done it in December or early January? And again, I never saw any kind of ovulation or POS, so what’s up?

I’m not voicing these questions to anyone specifically. They are mainly just things I’ve asked myself over and over.

So – right now she has these large follicles in her that appear to be moving along down verrrrrryyy slowwwwly. Her lower body is now slightly “plump” all over, but not abnormal. Her mid-section lump has been gone a long time. I am taking her back in mid March to take another peek. At some point in time, we will need to make a decision about what to do. I really can’t imagine any babies coming of this. I don’t want these (??infertile??) follicles to just sit there and do whatever, for however long. If she isn’t going to expel them, they will eventually need to come out. Unless, any of you here on the forum, have any ideas, I suppose I will leave it up to my vet and his counsels. So far, he and they, have proven to be very capable and he suggests to wait a little longer. (I’m so lucky to have him. He loves boas like we all do.)

So this is the story of Missy and her silly human. It is a story with a beginning and a middle, but no end yet.

Stay tuned - news at 11
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Linda Hedgpeth
lindafh@frontiernet.net
Sierra Serpents

"Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away"

Thank you for that detailed post. This is just the kind of post that I wish more breeders would do because there is alot of information to be learned. I must confess I have no experience with the ultrasound of these animals so I certainly can't add anything meaningfull in that area. I have had a few boas ovulate late and it was usually after I began feeding them fairly heavily. Maybe this is the final physiologic cue some animals need that indicates food is abundant and it is allright to ovulate.
Hopefully Jeremy and any others with more experience, particularly with the ultrasound, can shed some light on this.
At any rate Congratulations on 2 Motley litters. I look forward to seeing the color in the non hypo Motleys from your Monstertail litter.
Bill

I dont know if this means anything or not, but in regards to the ovulating after returning to normal feeding heres a statement-question.
I breed my male Sunset cross male to my Possible Super Hypo female after breeding him with my big normal female. He courted her like crazy for a while, but I never saw couplation. Then he just stoped so I waited a couple of weeks but he was clearly done, and no sign of an ovulation from her so I seperated them. I just figured she was still to small and needed another year.
I just fed her 5 days ago and 2 days after feeding a fairly average-small meal for her she looked huge like she was going to explode. I just thought the meal was bigger than I thought but buy the next night she has no noticable bulge anymore. So was this an ovulation? I have no clue at this point. What do you guys think?

Sometimes that overly large lump from feeding during this time of the year, is accentuated by developing follicles. Your meal was the right size, but her insides are a little more "full".

In our breeding trials this year I have noticed this with all of our females who have been bred (not neccesarily gravid)and fed. Most if not all of them are very large now. Also, to add a note, I believe that I have only witnessed 2 ovulations out of 8 of our breeding females. All females are "HUGE" and all males have stopped courting / breeding. Even when taken out and re-introduced several days later. Whats going on???? I stopped trying to figure it out....makes my head hurt

Hello Linda, As Bill said previous that is just the kind of info we need for boa breeders to share. I agree! I think you are wonderfull for sharing that. Also could you share those xray pics? Your female, how old is she? What is her weight?

Have a wonderful day! Andy Federico

...but I've got several questions about ultrasounding. My work just purchased an ultrasound unit and I am tinkering with the idea of trying to check my BRB for gravidity. I keep coming up short on finding info about how to go about it. I am learning how to use it and can easily find babies in dogs and cats at this point. Could you tell me how to position a boa? Upside down I imagine, but I've seen different ideas. Some of the books say to probe through a balloon filled with water. I've heard to use big gobs of gel. I'm fairly sure I can set the machine correctly. Is it very stressful on the snake(assuming it's restraint isn't forceful)? Also is there a best time in the pregnancy to attempt this? Unfortunately there is only 1 clinic in the city I live in that claim's to have experience but they don't have the ultrasound, we do!

Thanks Linda,

Linda Misch

P.S. I'd like to see the xrays if you decide to post them.

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"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance- that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer

Well, Dr, Sewards ball python video, has some good info on ultra sounds. It shows the snake in a tub filled with water, and as they move the probe you can see the follicles. It does not look that hard to do, and may not be worth even buying the video. Hope this helps. Andy

Linda M,

Basically you can use a probe that reads at 5-7.5 mHz. If your probe is water resistent it is easiest to immerse the animal and probe in luke warm water and go at it. If not you can use the ultrasound "jelly" which is pretty much the same thing as KY Jelly. You will find that the water is easier and yields a much better result.

Then think about dividing the length of the snake's body into 3 EQUAL portions. At the 2nd division mark (just past the stomach area) you can start ultrasounding. You can go through the side or sometimes its better if you go through the belly at an angle with the probe head positioned at the edge of the ventral scales. Remember you want the probe head to run lengthwise (parallel NOT perpendicular) with the snake's body.

Once you get some nice fuzz going on the screen try to find the gallbladder... it will appear as a dark black oblong oval sometimes having pointy edges. The ovaries are just behind that. The follicles should present themselves well and there you go!

Good luck with it... learn from it. The technology can really give us all a better understanding of how these fantastic creatures work!

Thanks,

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Sean Bradley
Owner : EbN
www.ExoticsByNature.com
www.BallPythonMorphs.com
www.CornSnakeMorphs.com

Thanks perfect information, just what I wanted to know although I was vague with the questions. I also read your other reply just below and found that useful too.

Aren't you folks the Lipstick people? Very beautiful!

Thanks again,
Linda Misch

No problem Linda... let me know if you have any other questions.

Actually... we're not the lipstick people... that would be Tom and Amanda Burke. I really wish we WERE the lipstick people. Not that I would wear lipstick or anything

Good luck!
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Sean Bradley
Owner : EbN
www.ExoticsByNature.com
www.BallPythonMorphs.com
www.CornSnakeMorphs.com

I don't see an ultrasound harming any embryonic development but X-rays? Even if the vet told you, "congratulations, you're going to have 30 babies," don't you think that they may potentially be genetically damaged from the X-rays? I realize snakes are not as complex as humans but I still wouldn't risk exposing the animals in this manner. Evidently your vet thinks it's safe I guess.

Linda, that is just such an informative post. I am very sorry I cannot shed any new light on your situation, but I would like to thank you for sharing it with all of us. I wish that more people were as open about their experiences as you are. It seems that more often than not, people want to guard their breeding "secrets", lest anyone else have success and create more competition.

For most of us this is a hobby and a passion and any and all information relavent to our situation is welcome. That is why I am sitting in front of the computer reading this forum day after day, hoping that today I might learn something new. The pictures are always great, but for me, it is mostly a quest for more knowledge. There is so much more to be learned about our hobby and our fascinating wiggly friends, especially in the reproduction department. I love to hear of other peoples' experiances, successes and failures alike because there are lessons there.

Thank you again for sharing and please occasionally update us on how Missy is doing.

Kathy

Linda,

I know Celia usually replies to these posts but she thought it may be better if I went in on this one just to share a little experience that I have gained this season. So here it goes...

First off I have found that most all of our female boas are resistant to copulation efforts until their follicles mature to about 20-25mm (2-2.5 cm) I have found myself not really even bothering with breeding females under 20mm most of the time. The follicles will continue to mature to about 35-40mm and then ovulation occurs. Most females don't mature at the same rate. It has been my understanding that many other breeders see a lot of consistency with follicular development in their animals, I feel that I don't. Some females will grow their follicles at 2mm/week and others can grow as fast as 8-10mm/week. I find the fastest growth occurs after the eggs becomes vitellogenic (which is the process of an egg forming its yolk) which is best indicated on the ultrasound by the color of the follicles going from a solid black (nonvitellogenic) to the color white with a dark gray - black tracing around it (vitellogenic). Before they go vitellogenic they seem to grow a steady 1mm/week but afterwards they seem to grow at a much faster rate.

My main question for you Linda is... how close to the cloaca are the follicles. Do they still appear to be held in the ovaries? I'm sure you and your Dr. already know this but if the follicles have descended all the way down to the cloaca then ovulation has already occured and if the eggs don't appear to grow and develop then they may all be infertile. If they have not decended, this brings forth my second question... How large are her largest follicles?

As for you wanting to breed these girls a certain time of year... I can't blame you! However it seems to me, this season, that I have little control over this process even though I cool and light cycle my animals differently. As of right now it looks as if we will have babies as early as April and as late as October! We might as well be breeding boas all year long at this rate. It has been very interesting to see boas that were housed in the same racks with the same temperature drops and photoperiods developing follicles at many different times this season. I always thought that boas were more "cycled" breeders that had consistent results. I guess I was wrong!

I hope that your girl does well. I also hope that the x-rays aren't harmful to the potential offspring (I'm sure you guys looked into that.) I would really like to know what happens with this situation as I'm sure the rest of the KS Boa Forum readers would also.

Good Luck...
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Sean Bradley
Owner : EbN
www.ExoticsByNature.com
www.BallPythonMorphs.com
www.CornSnakeMorphs.com

I have a female that has followed a similar pattern as Linda's boa. She had swelling from follicles developing and I witnessed copulation and took this pic....
[img]http://showcase.netins.net/web/reptiless/stuff/breeding/24.jpg[img]
They continued to court for a couple weeks after this pic and stopped. She looked more swollen and on a couple occassions I thought I saw a larger swelling that could possibly be ovulation but she did not shed afterwards. Now she has thinned down and only appears slightly swollen. I am guessing that she is not gravid and is reabsorbing and I will have to try again next year.
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Jaremy Douglas

That is incredible information and great observation with only working with your ultrasound recently. That is AWESOME stuff.

I hope this doesn't sound like I'm saying you're wrong, I'm right because I am NOT at all. Everyone has different ways of doing it, and one isn't right over the other. Heck, if the result is babies, then who cares?? lol

However, I have noticed that in Ball Pythons that vitellogenic occurs between 12mm’s and 13 mms. I have seen this happen at a larger state on SOME females. However, with the Boas, I have noticed this happen exactly at 15mm’s. Maybe I’m wasting my males, but I usually like to have them courting when the follicles are about 13 mm’s. I have found that the females have strong pheromones at this size, and the males go nuts. You are right that they growth rate is variable with different females. I get very frustrated when a female gets STUCK at a certain size. If they stay the same size for longer then 3 weeks, I find they usually retain the follicles, and we have to try again next year. I have never seen a female go above 33 mms and then retain them. As for Ball Pythons I have not seen a female reabsorb the eggs after they are larger then 25mm’s. However, I’m sure it is still possible. Like I said, I could be wasting my males and putting them in too early when I really don’t need to until the follicular size is bigger. I do sometime catch a female at 20mm’s or larger before I even have a male in with her. I have come to the conclusion that no matter WHAT, I will only use 1 male to 2 females NO MORE. Even if the male can handle it and the females ovulate quickly, I am not going to put them with more. I have lost too many males to stress, and tail infections. The only way I could have a male breed more then 2 females is if he is in a breeding group with multiple males. If this is the situation I am starting to give my Males a TIME limit. If they haven’t finished in this time, they are OUT of the cage. Of course other males can finish the job. (I only do this in a few situations). This year I have pulled males that I have NO doubts could breed a LOT more, but they are happy to feed in my warm room too. There is always NEXT year, and males are a lot more valuable then a few more litters. IT took me a long time to learn this lesson.

We also may be seeing different things and describing it the same way. When I bought my updated software for my Rectal probe, I could see this process MUCH clearer. So, maybe your ultrasound just isn’t picking it up until later, or maybe your Boas growth rate of follicular development is just a little different in your neck of the woods is exactly as you described it. That is completely possible. However, that was an AWESOME post with incredible detail. I thought I was the only one who really paid attention to stuff like that. LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Best of luck to you and Celia this year. I can’t wait to see your Jungles. I bet they are SCREAMERS!!!!!! Take Care, and thanks for sharing such detailed information.

I think I answered most of your questions in my posts at the top from last night, except for the one about how close the follicles are to the cloaca. I'm not sure, but I don't think they were close at all in the x-rays above taken last October. Now, they may be closer, but I still don't know what to do about them, except to wait a little longer and see if she will expel them.
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Linda Hedgpeth
lindafh@frontiernet.net
Sierra Serpents

"Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away"

Linda,

Sounds like this girl is making you go Bonkers. First I would like to let everyone know why I did tell you to “HOLD OFF” breeding. I personally have not had good luck in breeding in Mid to Late Summer. Also, that female was Barely 25 months at that time. I think it would have been a huge mistake to get her pregnant so early as this could have contributed to many problems she may have the rest of her life. I have bred Young females with NOTHING but tragic results. I have had young females up to size with BIG follicles and decided to go for the GUSTO. I really wish I hadn’t. I would love to give the statistics on my numbers, but I would bore everyone more then I already do. So, I do feel that adding another 6 months of feeding would have had NO Harm or effect on her follicular growth, and After following HUNDREDS of Boas the past 5 years with ultrasound technology, I believe I can shed some light on the situation.

FIRST of all, without a DOUBT females can grow HUGE follicles without the presence of a male. So, you don’t have to have a Male COURTING a female in order for the follicles to grow big. Also, a Male will breed a female with VERY small follicles. I have found that this REALLY does wear out the Males. There is no REASON to put them on a female and have them court them to get those follicles to a Specific size when the female will do it without the male. Had you have left your male in with that female to court her, I would almost BET you 100 bucks your Hypo Female wouldn’t be pregnant buy that SAME male, and the other female you mentioned you were breeding wouldn’t have a shot either. Now, You ask, HOW IN THE HECK do I know that my female has BIG follicles without an ultrasound??? I know this sounds silly, but you really can tell by behavior. I have been almost able to guess where EVERY female I have ultrasounding is at before we even Ultrasound her. Gaylynn always asks me. HOW DID YOU KNOW THAT??? Well, I think the females really tell you and let you know. Of course I can pin point MUCH clearer because of my past experience with Ultrasounding. However, there are Breeders such as Mike W, Pete Kahl, and I’m sure Rich Ihle and Jeff Ronne, can just look at a female and KNOW that she has large follicles. Some of the females show it by the body, and others just start acting differently. As you get to know each animal, you start to figure it out. I think that is why it is SOOO important to take notes and KEEP those notes and study them every year so you can learn what the animals behavior was before and that can help you make decisions the next year. With a large collection of Boas, it is even MORE important because it is very easy to forget.

Second. You really don’t need an ultrasound to determine follicular size. I have found that it is quite easy to Palpatate BOAS!!! YES BOAS. You have to do it Completely Opposite then you do the Ball pythons, but it is quite similar and easy. So, if you can FEEL the follicles, they are DEFINATLEY large enough for you to introduce a Male. On my knew web site, I’ll have video footage of HOW to do this, so be a little more patient, and I will have some examples of “HOW TO DO THIS” as well as many other things.

Last without REALLY boring you, I can tell you that X rays are pretty hard to read. 2 years before Gaylynn and used Ultrasounds, we used to pack up the car with a ton of heat pads and bring as many females as we thought we could to the Vet for Xrays. Sometimes you could see, but sometimes you couldn’t and GAS is dark black just like slugs, and they are very hard to determine possible outcomes. I also did some studies on the effects of Xrays, and although I did have some good litters, I don’t think it is the best thing for them. However, they can really be helpful in areas such as this.

Here is what I would do. Chris at Giantkeeper mentioned his experience with feeding and breeding, and he is correct. There was a question he was answering when the guy asked if his female ovulated. Well, to touch up on that. I can tell you that I have NEVER had a female eat within 2 weeks of her ovulataion, and most of the time it is 3 to 4 weeks before they take food. So, if you feed a female and she gets a HUGE lump it is probably like Chris said the combination of large follicles and food. FEEDING is sometimes hard to tell if they are GRAVID because some females eat and some don’t.

Why Bring that up? Because here is what I would tell LINDA to do in this situation. Since gas can be caused by the breaking down of food, I wouldn’t feed that Female Motley for 2 weeks. I would then go in and get an Xray or an Ultrasound. The Ultrasound would be ideal but if you don’t have that technology, then do the X ray. HOWEVER, Just go 3 inches up from the VENT. Once a female has Ovulated, the eggs go ALL the way into the VENT. Sometimes we think a female has completely ovulated, and Gaylynn and I just take the Probe 1 to 2 inches from the Vent and if we see circles, they have NOT completely ovulated from both ovaries. So, take the X ray or the Ultrasound and go up from that point. If you see nothing, she has NOT ovulated. IF SHE hasn’t ovulated then there is NO use of worrying about SLUGS that are stuck that have to be removed. She may have some infection in the bowel which is NOT uncommon for females breeding, and that could be a LOT worse. However, if you don’t see matter within 6 to 8 inches up from the VENT, she is NOT gravid. So, I hope that Helps.

I could go on a little further, but this is long enough. I will mention this about the Ultrasound. It is VERY Difficult to see into LARGER Boas even with a great Probe. So, you really have to know EXACTLY what you are doing and have a LOT of experience to determine what is going on. Also, you can START to see Hearbeats exactly 30 days after the POS. However, you have to be good to see them that young. I would suggest trying at 40 to 45 days. The first 2 years we used the ultrasound, it was hard to determine if there were babies or Slugs because SLUGS look like little cinnamon rolls that look like skeletons. It wasn’t until MANY MORE females we ultraounded that we could make an accurate decision on EXACTLY what is going on. It really takes Years of experience to know FOR SURE. Also, when working with an Ultrasound, it is BEST to have 2 PEOPLE do it. I couldn’t imagine where I would be without Gaylynn helping me, and giving her advice on what is going on. It is IMPOSSIBLE to do Boas with one person in Water. Gell is the ONLY way a solo person can do it.

Also, I will mention that the Ultrasound has been Very helpful, but it really is a LOT more effective in Ball Python breeding then in Boa Breeding. Again, most breeders that really learn and know the animals can really easily tell when a female has follicles and needs a Male. The rest really is up to Mother Nature. Sure there are somethings we can attempt to mimic in the wild as Best as we can, but Even in the PERFECT conditions a female still can give slugs, Die, or Not get gravid. ALSO, it is 100 percent true that a female can get HUGE follicles all the way up to 25 mm’s in size, and then reabsorb them. This process takes about 3 weeks of reabsorbtion. During this time, a female will NOT feed. What causes this or triggers this is something I have NO CLUE about.

Hope this helps!!!! Best of luck Linda. I know you really want those Fantastic Purple Babies, and I know in time you’ll have them.

I’ll be happy to answer ANY questions on the topic if you would like to post them. Jeremy Stone

np