Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have not hatched kingsnakes in over a decade. Been messing with other reptiles. Last year I hatched four species of snakes. Kinda like riding a bike.

I was very lucky to hatch such beautiful kings, as the parents were givin to me and not the prettyist around. Enjoy Frank

Frank,
Those look great. It is amazing how a not so pretty Thayeri will throw awesome offspring. They have the greatest genetics around.
Cool snakes!
Those look A LOT like the ones I have produced.
Thanks for the pics. Don't you love the variability within the clutches? And there is no such thing as an ugly one in my book. LOL
John Lassiter

At first glance the colors make me think of a nice corn snake.Those are some very pretty thayeri,thanks for posting the pics,
Jeff Teel

Nice thayeri...congratulations........chris

Nice looking Kings Frank. Could you please post below to the questions I asked ? They got buried pretty quick so maybe you just missed them.

Regards,

Keith
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I mentioned a range of 55F to 100F and you said, yours are 74F to 85F or thereabouts. Hmmmmmmmm you don't see the difference?

I mentioned that modern cages are small and lack the ability to have a wide temperature range. Then you asked how big my cages were.

I learned the capabilities of kingsnakes(n captivity) with cages that were four to six feet long and had subfloors, which doubled the the active space and gave an above ground/below ground effect.

You asked a question about growth, short stocky verses long thin. I reponded. You then bring up genetics etcs. About genetics, were there indication that your snake came from short fat parents? did those parents come from a local with short fat snakes? etc. If not, you have no reason to think its so.

That one individual is different from the others could indeed be genetics, but not what your thinking. Its most likely about tolerance to stress levels. Not in structural build. You understand there are rapid changing genes and slow changing genes. Structure is a solid slow moving gene. In other words, a bad bet in your case.

In your case, its a good bet its conditions and more accurately tolerence to those conditions. Tolerance to stress is highly variable amoung individuals. Again, a good bet in your case.

Try thinking about this. To grow is to expend energy. To expend energy for snakes is to increase their metabolism. To increase metabolism is to increase temps. In your case, you have limited their ability to increase metabolism, therefore energy is then stored as fat. Hence your short fat individual. All it takes is an individual that shys away from the warm side, for whatever reason, and you have a shorter fatter individual. Learn whats bothering that individual.

Please understand, your animals appear to be healthy. Your obviously doing well. But indeed your temps are middle of the road. IF you want to see potential, then you need to expand the conditions and allow the animals the ability to make choices.

Again please take this in context, in this area, colubrids, there is a huge number of successful keepers, as opposed to my area with monitors. There are very few successful keepers with them, things like growth and reproduction are used as goals and levels of success. With kingsnakes, which have been bred to generations for many decades(I know, I did it many decades ago) Exposing the potentials is more a degree of success then achieving basic life events.

It all boils down to this, your temps are middle of the road and that is the design of the modern caging systems and protocal. Nothing wrong with it, it does indeed work. But its still middle of the road. You seem to be curious, so break down the walls and allow them more choices, in both directions. Allow them to conserve more energy(cooler temps) and the ability to expend energy faster(hotter temps) and you will see a whole new kingsnake. Which I believe is fun. FR

Frank

I never said I had a short fat snake but long thin to average weight snakes. Im not sure what you are referencing in the short fat snake thing ??? Maybe you mixing the posts up. I grew a 12" snake to almost 4' in a year on a temps that were more solid at 83 with very little gradient (not by choice but by forced logistics) to a then temp gradient of 10 degrees. This snake grew long and slim while others simpoly grew normally not short and fat nor skinny just average. I dont powerfeed my animals. Once a week is how they are fed maybe a little more during the spring and summer months. Now to your points....

>>I mentioned a range of 55F to 100F and you said, yours are 74F to 85F or thereabouts. Hmmmmmmmm you don't see the difference?

Of course I see the difference Frank please dont be condescending its rude and helps nobody understand anothers points.

>> I mentioned that modern cages are small and lack the ability to have a wide temperature range. Then you asked how big my cages were. I learned the capabilities of kingsnakes(n captivity) with cages that were four to six feet long and had subfloors, which doubled the the active space and gave an above ground/below ground effect.

Thats the answer I was looking for my question I just wasnt sure how you achieved such a large gradient. But i would still like to know such things as ambient air temp around the enclosure styles of heating substrate etc...

>> You asked a question about growth, short stocky verses long thin. I reponded. You then bring up genetics etcs. About genetics, were there indication that your snake came from short fat parents? did those parents come from a local with short fat snakes? etc. If not, you have no reason to think its so.

In the case of my f2 4' yearling he came from 5' parenst and the wildcaught grandparents were 6' and 5' respectively. So yeah these animals have the potential to get big. I think you may be confusing the reason(s) for my post. Im guessing with your method a snake has the potental to reach its maximum potential. It may be 3' or it may be 6'. I mean Im not going to get a thayeri to 6' just because I use huge temp gradients and thats where genetics come into play. As far as it being more natural I agree it probably is but there are many many variables in the wild that arent in a tank. One is the ability to get to optimal temp spots ? Maybe there are too many predators about or its raining and cold when they need to get to 90 degrees that day ?? In the tank its not an issue but in the wild it is. In the wild snakes probably on avergae dont eat weekly so thermoreugulation for digestion isnt maybe an issue. My point is your way is way closer to something natural than mosts but its still unnatural, agree? Snakes like anything are individuals while genetics can sway things there are other issues as well such as appetite they way they deposit fat etc... Snakeslike people are different. My brother is 5'9" Im 6'1" yet we both ate at the same dinner table and even shared a room until we were 18. I guess when you make references to this technique you come off as cut and dry as the outcome is the same no matter what and I doubt that. You can say a snake has the best potential to reach certain sizes using your way but unless you have a crystal ball to see the potential in something it would be hard to do or know if they have reached there potential right ? I cant make something grow bigger than its supposed to. Now diet and enviroment may get you more out of the animal if things are perfect but again how would you know ? You cant look at 2 10" baby Kings and say that one should be 6' and the other 5.5'. So knowing thats impossible how does one determine potential ? You can guess or look at the parents or the grandparents but then you would have to assume they meet their full potential and so forth.

>> That one individual is different from the others could indeed be genetics, but not what your thinking. Its most likely about tolerance to stress levels. Not in structural build. You understand there are rapid changing genes and slow changing genes. Structure is a solid slow moving gene. In other words, a bad bet in your case.

What do you mean by structure ? Muscle and length ? If thats the case then why the hell do snakes on average double there size the first year ? You need to clarify this Im not reading you maybe

>> Try thinking about this. To grow is to expend energy. To expend energy for snakes is to increase their metabolism. To increase metabolism is to increase temps. In your case, you have limited their ability to increase metabolism, therefore energy is then stored as fat. Hence your short fat individual. All it takes is an individual that shys away from the warm side, for whatever reason, and you have a shorter fatter individual. Learn whats bothering that individual.

Again I dont have a problem with short fat snakes all my snakes are growing well and are normally proportioned. I think you are confusing me with another poster.

>> Please understand, your animals appear to be healthy. Your obviously doing well. But indeed your temps are middle of the road. IF you want to see potential, then you need to expand the conditions and allow the animals the ability to make choices.

I dont disagree with you here.

>> Again please take this in context, in this area, colubrids, there is a huge number of successful keepers, as opposed to my area with monitors. There are very few successful keepers with them, things like growth and reproduction are used as goals and levels of success. With kingsnakes, which have been bred to generations for many decades(I know, I did it many decades ago) Exposing the potentials is more a degree of success then achieving basic life events.
>>
>> It all boils down to this, your temps are middle of the road and that is the design of the modern caging systems and protocal. Nothing wrong with it, it does indeed work. But its still middle of the road. You seem to be curious, so break down the walls and allow them more choices, in both directions. Allow them to conserve more energy(cooler temps) and the ability to expend energy faster(hotter temps) and you will see a whole new kingsnake. Which I believe is fun. FR

Thanks Frank I may just do that as an expirement. Im not sure how yet but it will be interesting to try.
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This is the second time I reponded to a question from you and the second time you flipped out. Please do not do this again.

I can play your silly paragraph game, instead of taking the whole post in context. I can alsochange the colors and do all sorts of silly things But that is not really what this is all about. Is it?

Your question was about growth in kingsnakes, my responce was about achieving growth in kingsnakes. Of course it cannot be exact. I only have a few sentences to work from(from you). So I offer a wide area for you to work from. But like so many, you do not pick the parts that apply or may apply, you pick what offends you.

So I say, go be offended, its not my problem. If you want to participate then bare with me and keep up the conversation. Pick the parts that pertain, and ignore the parts that don't. If we stay at it, we may come up with something. But if you go take paragraph by paragraph, seperate them, take them out of context, then I wish your snakes well and you can bite me. I say that because its on my hat. My field partner and I were in the bush and stopped by this little country store, they had hats that had a picture of a rattlesnake, tails rattling, in a striking position. Below the snake was the town, Arivaca, Arizona. Above the snake in large bold letters is, BITE ME. So I guess thats where I get my "tude"

Consider, Your the one doing the asking, if you do not like the answer, then ignore it. Or better yet, isn't it possible that what you don't like is what you don't understand, if so, then try to understand it. Thanks FR

Dont be sorry just be informed. You made numerous references to me having short fat snakes and I never ever said I had those. I wanted to make sure the info you were getting from me was in fact from me and you were digesting was correct. I guess if you see what "I said" I had for temps and you thought I had short fat snakes do you see where there could be a misunderstanding ? If not then I ask that you read the posts carefully so as to avoid this. I simply use the tools that the forum lets us use dont be offended by it its not to impress you but I do this so people can read and see what Im saying clearly so they dont confuse things...check that I guess that doesnt work for all. Thanks for the info Frank.

Keith
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You mentioned a thick snake, as opposed to thin snakes, this is not about skinny. I used the words, short and thick, to express the difference between a thick and normal a young normal snake.

I said, they are suppose to grow long and thin until they reach sexual maturity. That is a big period.

Long and thin means for the heritage of the animal your working with.

Again, its common that young animals grow long before they bulk up. If they bulk up young, its a good bet its about enviornmental conditions as compared to genetic abnormality. But hey anything can happen.

I do wonder why your so sensitive to short and thick. hehehehehehehehe never mind. FR