Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hey there, I am tying to construct a number of 2 foot cubes for my chondros and small jungles. My questions are as follows (thanks in advance)
1) I plan on using pvc sheets, is sintra the best option? Chris I see you seem to be a fan of sintra.

2) My goal is to create cages that are inexpensive, functional, and as easy to construct as possible. I feel that I can cut the material if I can't get it cut for me. However, joining the corners has me a little scared. Obviously heat bent seams is the way to go for experienced builders, but not me. Welding seems equally daunting. Can I drill and screw the edges? Is there a cement that is easy for amateurs to use? I currently have 6 4x2x2 cages made of PVC that aren't welded, bent, or glued. The corners are held together by brads. Sounds like they wouldn't be very sturdy but they have held up for three years so far. Another thought I had was L connectors. What are your thoughts?

3) Will caulk stick to PVC? If not is there a similar material that will?

4)2x2x2 cages should be made of 1/4" material? 1/2" Material? What thickness would you recomend?

Thanks so much-
Ben

>>Hey there, I am tying to construct a number of 2 foot cubes for my chondros and small jungles.

Small cages like these should be pretty easy.

>>1) I plan on using pvc sheets, is sintra the best option? Chris I see you seem to be a fan of sintra.

I only mention Sintra because when people go out and ask for PVCX nobody knows what it is. Sign shops tend to refer to all four brands or so of expanded PVC as Sintra so it's just easiest to ask for that.

Honestly, I don't really know much about the four brands. Again, I just call it Sintra to avoid confusion. Just like going to a glass shop for Plexiglass and getting another brand of acrylic.

But to get to the point, definately use an expanded PVC. You don't want to use solid PVC sheeting, IMO - your only other PVC choice.

>>2) My goal is to create cages that are inexpensive, functional, and as easy to construct as possible.

Have you seen my storage tote design? That will fit your criteria better than PVCX cages

>>Can I drill and screw the edges?

Yes, but that means using the 1/2" product which gets very expensive and not very light. I just don't see the point of using it for the DIY cage builder.

>>Is there a cement that is easy for amateurs to use?

Any of the PVC solvents or cyanoacrylate. Note that PVC cements are still a type of welding. Solvent welds instead of heat welds but achieves the same thing by melting two pieces together.

>>I currently have 6 4x2x2 cages made of PVC that aren't welded, bent, or glued. The corners are held together by brads.

How thick is the PVC? What company made them? I'd guess the brads simply held the joints together while a PVC solvent of some sort dried.

>>Another thought I had was L connectors. What are your thoughts?

PVC angle from US Plastic along with a water-thin PVC glue is how I would do it.

>>3) Will caulk stick to PVC? If not is there a similar material that will?

Silicone will.

>>4)2x2x2 cages should be made of 1/4" material? 1/2" Material? What thickness would you recomend?

As mentioned earlier, go with 1/4" for weight and cost issues. 1/2" is easier to use but the thought of a spending more that twice the money and getting a cage that may be more than twice the weight is not worth it to me.

BTW, I say more than twice the weight because some brands of PVCX increase the density of their 1/2" and up products.
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Current snakes:

0.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Silver/Yellow)

3.3 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Green)

2.1 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black)

3.3 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black & Tan)

Thanks for the response...
I haven't seen your storage tote design, I am assuming it is a rack variation? I have built a few racks, but really want some front opening cages for my bigger chondros (The 2 foot cube cages are a stepping stone, I will eventually be building some 3 foot and 4 foot cages too).

If I use a solvent how do I set up the pieces so that they stay at the proper angle while drying?

Thanks again

>>I haven't seen your storage tote design, I am assuming it is a rack variation?

No. I have built a handful of front opening cages using 50 gallon storage totes to form the basic shell of the cage. Has since been used by others for Chondros and other species. BTW, it's really not right for me to call it my design as at least one other keeper came up with the same idea on his own without knowing of my cages and vice versa.

>>The 2 foot cube cages are a stepping stone, I will eventually be building some 3 foot and 4 foot cages too).

If you plan to build some 3 and 4 foot cages then I do believe that developing your technique on the 2' cube cages is a good idea.

>>If I use a solvent how do I set up the pieces so that they stay at the proper angle while drying?

I should have explained my idea better. When using expanded PVC the strongest way to weld the material is to overlap the pieces so the surface of one sheet welds to the surface of another. Not exactly the best way to make a cage, however.

If you weld surface to edge the solvents can cause the cells of the foamed interior to collapse, therby making for a weak joint. Evidently the water-thin cyanoacrylate deals with this problem quite well.

If you want to try them you can clamp the pieces together with masking tape.

Regardless, if I ever get around to building my own PVCX cages I plan to avoid surface to edge joints altogether.

Instead I'll form the corners by surface welding two adjoining sheets to a strip of 1"x1" corner angle made from solid PVC. This will make for an incredibly strong joint.

I'll probably have the angle on the outside of the cage as these corners tend to be what get banged up when we move cages, etc. I assume it will also make the cage easier to clean.

Note that with this design a surface of one piece will still butt up against the edge of another. But the corner angle will be providing most of the joint strength.

The one downfall to this design would be quality control issues with the PVC angle. If it's out of whack individual pieces may need to be bent a bit. Should be pretty easy.

Unfortunately I have not seen enough of the corner angle to know how good it is.

This technique is probably too expensive and time consuming for the cage companies who can invest the money and time into thermal formers, jigs, and the practice to bend this material.

But for the individual hobbyist it's a sure-fire way to build a very durable cage.
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Current snakes:

0.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Silver/Yellow)

3.3 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Green)

2.1 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black)

3.3 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black & Tan)

I like the idea of the pvc angles for the joints. The protection of the corners is almost enough to make me go that way.
Just to clarify- you mean to "glue" the surface of the pvcx to directly to the angle. Resulting in 2 surface to surface bonds per edge.

I know what you mean about the storage tote idea. I have made some of these, but wasn't ever happy with them. If you have pics I would love to see them. What did you use for the frame?

Just got back from the sign shop. $110 or so for an 8x4 sheet of 6 mil. Not as cheap as I was hoping, but they will cut it out for me for 12 bucks. Hopefully I will be in construction by the end of the week and will have a million other questions.
Thanks again for all your help.

>>Just to clarify- you mean to "glue" the surface of the pvcx to directly to the angle. Resulting in 2 surface to surface bonds per edge.

Yes, 1" of one panel will be glued to the inside of the corner angle. Then about 3/4" of the other panel will be glued to the other inside of the corner angle. 3/4" due to 1/4" taken up by the other panel.

>>>>Just got back from the sign shop. $110 or so for an 8x4 sheet of 6 mil. Not as cheap as I was hoping, but they will cut it out for me for 12 bucks. Hopefully I will be in construction by the end of the week and will have a million other questions.
>>Thanks again for all your help.

That's way more expensive than any price I've been quoted. Try plastic suppliers. You might be below $40 per sheet and they'll often cut it for you. Since you need the corner angle you might as well track down a supplier.

>>I know what you mean about the storage tote idea. I have made some of these, but wasn't ever happy with them. If you have pics I would love to see them. What did you use for the frame?

Either plywood with a hole cut out or pine stock made into a face frame with bisquit joints. Since I've already received one e-mail about these cages I'll go ahead and post the pictures again.

Here's the side view of my 50 gallon cage.

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Current snakes:

0.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Silver/Yellow)

3.3 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Green)

2.1 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black)

3.3 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black & Tan)

Sorry, I don't feel like doing html tags to post multiple pictures.

Sorry for the condition of the cage in this picture. It was trashed by a Corucia zebrata and it's newborn that needed separated from some aggressive males.

I built the face frame only because I wanted to have a clear view of the joint to the frame with this cage to check for leaks, etc. In a perfect world they would be built into a false wall or a free standing frame.

Box was attached with many 3/4" sheet-metal screws and some polyurethane based caulk. The joint is incredibly strong.

I have some pics of the smaller cages I built from plywood but they really won't show you anything these two pictures don't.
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Current snakes:

0.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Silver/Yellow)

3.3 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Green)

2.1 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black)

3.3 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black & Tan)

...

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Current snakes:

0.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Silver/Yellow)

3.3 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Green)

2.1 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black)

3.3 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black & Tan)

Yeah, I know what you're thinking: I'll just buy some material and make my own cages for dirt cheap. Fact is, unless you have the tools for the job, you'll end up ruining alot of material and getting shoddy results. I've been there. Here are my suggestions:

1) Find out which kind of saw and blade is best for PVCX. For edge-to-edge gluing, you'll need straight cuts with 90-deg edges. A jig saw won't do it (well, it can give a smooth cut but not straight enough and usually not 90-deg.) No good will come out of building cages with PVCX unless your cuts are true. Well, you might be able to get away with imperfect cuts if you use that PVC angle sold at plastic outlets.

2) Contact a plastics company (like U.S. Plastics) and get the right kind of glue for edge gluing. The PVC cement sold in hardware stores for PVC pipe works great on the surface bonds but not as well for edge bonds. For small cages, even silicon aquarium sealant might work, but I would avoid that route for long-term structural integrity of the cage.

With nice straight cuts and the right bonding agent, you should do fine. You can even attach glass or acrylic doors on hinges siliconed to the plastic (or bolted for larger doors.)

Good luck!
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Mark G

>>Yeah, I know what you're thinking: I'll just buy some material and make my own cages for dirt cheap.

Good point. Building your own plastic cages does not save nearly as much as building your own melamine cages, for example.

>>Well, you might be able to get away with imperfect cuts if you use that PVC angle sold at plastic outlets.

Another good point and the real beauty of the corner angle - you don't need to perfectly prepped edges.

>>2) Contact a plastics company (like U.S. Plastics) and get the right kind of glue for edge gluing.

They have not been much help to me in this regard. I might try TAP plastics, though, and see which of those caulk-type IPS Weld-On products would be best. I believe that's what Boaphile originally used.

>>The PVC cement sold in hardware stores for PVC pipe works great on the surface bonds but not as well for edge bonds.

Yes, totally forgot to mention this. I tend to write about PVCX thinking everyone will use the corner angle which duplicates surface-to-surface bonds.
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Current snakes:

0.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Silver/Yellow)

3.3 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Green)

2.1 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black)

3.3 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black & Tan)

I'm going to give a bit of a contrary opinion here. Take it with an appropriate grain of salt, but this is what has worked for me.

I have zero issues edge to face gluing Sintra. I have done it with every size from 2mm up to 13mm and have NEVER had a failure. In fact, I have some test pieces that I can completely invert and they will not fail (think of trying to break the joint apart along it's length; I can take the ends beyond the plane of the joint). I also use nothing but store bought PVC cement (yes, the stuff for plumbing pipes). The main differences between what you can get at your local home improvement store (Oakley is a locally available brand) and the plastics store stuff is, chemically, nothing (they are all the same active ingredient). Keep in mind that it is a very good idea to let a joint sit for a while to fully cure (15 minutes is likely not long enough). I try to let most joints set overnight before putting any stress on them.

That being said, ALL of my cuts are made on a table saw that is calibrated to within .01 degrees of 90 (with a very accurate dial indicator). Based on that fact, I believe that edge preparation is the most critical aspect of any plastic sheet fabrication (read a bit on chemical welding acrylic and you will see what I mean).

Now, I'm not saying that plastics are for everyone, and I'm not saying that you will have the same successes that I have had with it. I do believe, however, that with proper preparation, it is possible to fabricate complete cages from Sintra.

Good Luck,
Tom

>>I currently have 6 4x2x2 cages made of PVC that aren't welded, bent, or glued. The corners are held together by brads. Sounds like they wouldn't be very sturdy but they have held up for three years so far.

Still curious to know what thickness PVC and what company it was using these brads.
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Current snakes:

0.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Silver/Yellow)

3.3 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Green)

2.1 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black)

3.3 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black & Tan)

They were made by some guy that popped up making cages that has since dissapeared. They were pretty cheap ($150 each for 4x2x2 with sliding glass doors). It appears to be 6mil material.
Incidently I said something like these cages have stood up ok so far. That is a subjective statement mind you, they have warped a little, one or two of the edges have seperated a bit (which is why I believe there was no cement), and there is a bit of sagging. Oh well, you get what you pay for.

Chondro,

If you haven't already bought your Sintra, you might try checking around to see if you can buy it from a local distributor or mill cheaper. I'm going to be purchasing some Sintra from a plastics supplier [I live in Chicago], and I'm going to be getting it considerably cheaper than the prices quoted by a couple sign shops.

As far as joining pieces, I think Chris's idea of using PVC 90 degree angle channel is the best bet for easy assembly and strong corners. I was going to try forming some Sintra boxes using the bending method, and even purchased a cheap trim router to help rout V-grooved to insure clean easy bends. However, I found that my supplier also carries PVC angle stock so I figured that would be much easier to work with.

Other methods can be used to join pieces too. I saw on one site where a guy experimented with drilling and tapping threads into the material and it worked pretty well - he was using machine screws.

The place I'm getting my Sintra and PVC angle stock from is called Total Plastics: www.totalplastics.com
They might be able to ship angle stock directly to you via UPS. I didn't look into shipping because I can simply drive to pick up my materials. However, to cut down on their costs they get it shipped to them from the mill via UPS and as such it's cut down into 5 foot sections vs. the normal 10 foot lengths it comes in.
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Matt Campbell
Animal Keeper, Small Mammal/Reptile House
Lincoln Park Zoo Chicago, Illinois

Assistant Curator
Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, Illinois