Reptile & Amphibian Forums

are shelving units cruel or not i am thinking about getting one but i am wondering are they cruel cause all most people put in them are hide boxes and water bowls is there anything else needed....the thing i am wondering most about is a 12" by 6" shoebox thats about 3 or 4 inches high good for a baby snake (,garter,king,milk,or rat)
Thanx

chris

As long as you have enough room in them and the snakes aren't highly arboreal. They don't really need decoration.

There is no easy answer to this question. If you are a breeder and deal in a high volume of animals, you probably have no choice other than to house snakes in rack systems. However, if you're a hobbyist then you need to ask yourself if you are simply a collector or if you actually enjoy your animals. Sure a snake will survive in a small sweaterbox enclosure in a rack with only minimal accomodations, but will it thrive? I think not. All snakes exhibit varying behaviors and many if not all will have those natural behaviors diminished if not stamped out altogether by housing them in the most minimalistic cages. I have to wonder why some people keep snakes in racks if they don't have to. If you have too many snakes to be able to house them all in larger enclosures and a rack(s) is your only choice than in my opinion, you're doing your snakes a disservice. In my own collection of animals I have committed to providing the largest and most naturalistic enclosures possible for my animals given constraints of space, cost, etc. However, as funds and space have become available I have always opted to move my animals to larger enclosures. In the end it's your choice. Then again the animals will always be better off in larger enclosures and your keeping them will be rewarded because they'll thrive and you'll see far more interesting behaviors than you would if you housed your collection in a rack system.

My 2 cents worth,
Matt Campbell

A couple of questions:

How do you rate "thriving"? Is it growth rate? If for example, a Sinaloan Milk Snake grows from hatchling to breeding size in 18 months, never fails to feed and sheds exactly on schedule, would you consider that thriving? Or, is it some measure of the snake's "happiness"? How does the snake let you know when it's happy? Or unhappy? Let's say you open your snake's (any snake) cage and it takes a shot at you. Is that because it's unhappy? Or is it because of feeding response or a defensive bite? How do you know?

Let's say you have a rack system with 3 different sizes of cages in it. The top 3 shelves are for plastic shoeboxes for neonates, the next 3 are for sweater boxes for larger juveniles, and the bottom 2 are for blanket boxes for sub adults and adults. The program is to shift them to the next larger box down as they grow, providing them with a larger enclosure and opening up the top shelves for more neonates. Would you say that they are not thriving because they are in a rack system? Is it because they don't have cage furniture (limbs, rocks, waterfalls, plants, etc.)such as a hobbyist with one snake would provide in a 20-gallon aquarium? Even though the snake spends most of his day in his hiding box anyway? How would you explain the baby Jungle Carpet Python that is kept by the owner in a 40-gallon aquarium with all manner of "things" in there, but refuses to feed anyway until a breeder takes him and puts him in a smaller enclosure with nothing but a hide and water bowl, then he suddenly starts eating? Was that because he didn't like the decor of his cage or because he was insecure in the big enclosure? Let's say you have 15 baby Green Tree Pythons in Sterilite tubs in a rack with nothing but water bowls and a wooden dowel for a perch. All are feeding well and shedding well. Now someone buys one of them, takes it home and puts it in a huge arboreal cage and it refuses food for 2 months. Finally the customer calls you back, sends the snake back to you and you put it back in a Sterilite tub and within a week it's feeeding and doing well. Would that indicate to you that all snakes must have big enclosures?

Now let's say that you have a 6 foot Indigo Snake. You are keeping him in a cage with a floor space of 24"x 18". She's feeding and shedding and apparently doing well, but is a little listless and seems to be getting "flabby". Now you move her to a cage that is 72" long x 24" wide x 18" high, with a large dark hide at each end filled with cypress mulch and a thermal gradient between them. Now she becomes much more active, body tone improves and she breeds for you the next season.

Would all of this tell you that all snakes need big enclosures full of "stuff" to "thrive" or that you should key the cage size and design to the habits of the species you are dealing with? Does that mean that the breeder that uses racks is being "cruel", or that he's providing a particular species of snake with about the same space and security it would use in the wild anyway? If a fossorial neonate snake is placed in a 55 gallon aquarium with a small hiding box and tons of open space, it will spend it's time in the hiding box and really never use the rest of the cage.

So, in most cases, who is the big cage with all the limbs and rocks and waterfalls for, really? The snake or the keeper? Some snakes, such as Rat Snakes like to climb sometimes. A climbing limb might be beneficial to them. A Pueblan Milk Snake doesn't need it.

Also, there is the fact that rack tubs with spartan furnishings are easier to clean and disinfect. If a snake is kept in a large aquarium but dies of coccidiasis because the cage and furnishing couldn't be properly disinfected and he kept re-infecting himself until he built up a load of coccidia that overwhelmed his system, I wouldn't really call that "thriving".

So...on what are you basing your assumption that big cages are always better? Or,that smaller cages (racks) are necessarily "cruel"? Why does it matter if it's a hobbyist with 20 snakes or a breeder with 400 snakes? Why would a rack be cruel for a hobbyist but not for a breeder? Does the snake know the difference?

I have actually had snakes become more defensive in larger cages, and this is fairly common. I do keep some snakes in Sterlite containers, much like the ones used in rack systems. Sometimes these can get problem feeders to eat. They are definitely easier to store than 10 or 20 gallon tanks and are much cheaper. I really don't see a difference either way...my snakes do fine, grow, and eat just as well or better in shoeboxes. Andy
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Andy Maddox
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

Who are you who can say it's ok to live through me? Alice In Chains

I disagree. Snakes are not smart enough to tell the difference between "naturlistic" and utilitarian. It's not like the snake comes across a plastic hidebox and says "Geez, you can totally tell that's fake." Decorations are for you, not your snake, and usually they just make cleaning inconvenient and almost impossible.
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International Snakes Meetup
International Herpetology Meetup

I think not. Keep in mind that what most snakes want is proper temperatures, a place to hide, water to drink, and proper food. Above and beyond that, they want to be left alone! Aside from seasonal breeding urges, they are HAPPY alone, with nothing to do. They do not experience curiousity outside of searching for food, and they do not experience loneliness, because they are not social animals. They do not suffer from a lack of mental stimulation, because they are frankly not very bright animals, and are not naturally much for problem solving.
A snake that is left alone in a rack with everything it needs, and a stable environment is a HAPPY snake.

There are some exceptions, of course--you need to consider the individual species, and its habits in the wild. For example, you cannot keep a green vine snake in a rack. This is an animal that probably WILL do better in a nice planted enclosure--heavily planted, so it has plenty of space to hide. Why? Because it is a very VISUAL snake.
Most snakes utilize their sense of smell, heat sensing, and vibration sensing more than they utilize their eyes. They do not care how pretty their environment is. The few that DO rely primarily on their eyes are the ones you need to calm by providing a more natural environment.
This is just MHO.

Some people who keep snakes like racks, others don't. It's that simple. I'm probably not going to change anyone's mind, at least not on this forum, because clearly those who responded to my post took issue with my point of view. Instead if you're interested in reading a scientific study of naturalistic caging vs. sterile, minimalist caging find a copy of 'Health and Welfare of Captive Reptiles,' Edited by Clifford Warwick, Frederic Frye, and James B. Murphy. You'll want to read chapter 5 'Naturalistic versus clinical environments in husbandry and research.'

Matt Campbell

Certainly we can agree to disagree. I did not take exception to what you said. I was merely trying to clarify the criteria used for judging whether a snake is thriving or happy. I think that if a person says “I think that’s cruel”, then there must be some reasoning behind that statement. Likewise if they say “I think that snake is unhappy”. Obviously, if someone is beating a snake to death with a stick for no reason, then it would be agreed to by all that it could be considered cruel, at least by human standards. I don’t think that other snakes hanging around and watching would give it a second thought from that level…that’s the world they live in. Animals kill each other. Sometimes for no reason. That’s one of the things that separates us from the animals (plus the fact that we aren’t afraid of vacuum cleaners). But that’s not the sort of “cruelty” we’re discussing.

It seems to me that defining the criteria for whether a snake is thriving or not is pretty one-dimensional. If they are feeding, shedding, defecating and growing normally, and if they breed if that’s the mission, I would have to say that they are thriving. Quantifying “happiness” in a snake would be considerably more difficult if not impossible. Snakes give very few cues to let us know if they are happy. They don’t wag their tails (well, some do but it doesn’t mean they are happy), they don’t purr, they don’t smile at us. They only really let us know if they are unhappy. Actually, the only “feelings” I’ve seen in snakes is alarm, hunger, breeding drive and anger. So, how do you know he’s happy? I don’t think they have the mental capacity and reasoning power to know happiness or unhappiness, they simply respond instinctively or though limited ability to make association to some stimulus. They may associate feeding time with the cage being opened, and respond by looking for food. Even if a snake is docile, I don’t think it really “enjoys” being handled, it simply tolerates it. Even if you spend $10,000.00 building a snake condominium for your snake with an automatic mouse dispenser and all the “digs” of home, if you take that snake to your back yard, place it on the ground and walk away, it will crawl off never to voluntarily return. If it was “happy” with the keeper and the provisions, wouldn’t it logically hang around?

People try to associate human emotion with snakes. They are not capable of feeling emotion on that level. They don’t become “fond” of their keeper, they don’t have that capacity. Some snakes do seem to exhibit a slightly higher level of alertness and possibly intelligence, but it’s never going to rise to the level of wanting to meet you at the door with your slippers and newspaper.

I think snakes have basic requirements that are dictated by instinct and the design of the cage needs to bear that in mind. That means climbing options for arborials, hiding options for fossorials, water for aquatics, etc. Certainly nothing that in most cases can’t be accomplished with a rack system. Definitely there are some species that probably won’t be easily accommodated with a rack. Some common sense is in order with every endeavor. As long as you provide the basic requirements of food, water, adequate space, temperature, humidity and security as dictated by the natural habits of the species in question, I don’t think the type of enclosure matters a whit. If you have a fossorial species that spends most of it’s life hiding in a 8”x 8” moss filled crevice in a rock out of the sun, then an 8”x 8” plastic container filled with moss serves the same purpose. I don’t think the snake knows or cares it’s made of plastic. I’d be willing to bet good money that if you placed that same moss filled container in that snake’s natural habitat, he would use that same plastic box as a hide.

Your mileage may vary. What works well for me may not work well for you. I’ve read some of the material you referenced and some of it makes sense, but it all boils down to the same thing. Providing the basics required by a particular species. Admittedly, some of the techniques I use in keeping snakes have come from books, some from other herpers over the years. That doesn’t mean that I agree with everything they say and think. Overall they way I keep snakes is based on 30 years of keeping them and observing for myself what works well and what doesn’t. There’s almost always more than one right way to do a thing.

I do think that for someone to say that because I keep snakes in rack systems that I’m being cruel is judgmental and somewhat hypocritical, especially if they keep snakes no matter the enclosure type. One could follow the same line of reasoning that they present a few steps further and the only conclusion you could come to is that keeping snakes at all is cruel. I certainly don’t think that’s true. I would challenge those people to present a sound argument for their indictment. Show me demonstrable evidence that keeping snakes in a rack system (provided the basic needs are met) causes them to be unhappy and fail to thrive.

Oldherper,
I agree with much of what you say and I would hesitate to refer to rack systems as cruel. In my opinion they are adequate for meeting the needs of many species and yes, as you have mentioned as long as they eat, defecate, shed, and breed than you would have to say they are thriving. The only thing that could be a qualifier for that arguement would be if you wanted to include demonstration of natural behaviors as one criteria for determining whether or not a snake is thriving.

I have seen other hobbyists who keep adult ball pythons in blanket boxes in racks, and some guys who keep them in smaller boxes. In the wild, ball pythons will range from their burrows or other protected areas in order to forage. This is a natural behavior that is curtailed under almost all captive scenarios to one degree or another simply because it's rare that a hobbyist can keep a ball python in an enclosure large enough to allow the simulation of that natural behavior.

Now, that being said, I acknowledge that many snakes can live long lives when given proper care and housed in a rack system. However, one dimension that is missing is the mental dimension for the snake. Again we're having to consider how intellegent snakes are and whether they're simply driven by instincts and the most base emotions or whether they're capable of any higher thought. That's a topic for another discussion. I would argue that in order for a snake to truly thrive it must be able to exercise as many of the behaviors in captivity as a wild individual would. Many snakes tend to range over large areas throughout a normal season when they would be active. Such activity can encompass searching for food, mates, and towards the end of the season a winter den.

Housing a snake in such a small container as is usually standard in most racks eliminates that behavior. Does the snake really need to be able to crawl around for hours and go hundreds of feet to forage for it's food? Probably not becuase it will likely eat whether the food is put right in front of it or it's made to slither five feet to the other side of the cage to subdue it's prey. Ultimately what this appears to boil down to is a fundamental difference in what different hobbyists get out of keeping snakes.

For me, keeping snakes isn't just about providing the bare neccessities but it contains a different dimension. I'm a naturalist at heart and I've always appreciated not only the animal but the habitat it lives in and how it has evolved to survive in within that niche. I could keep far more snakes than I do if I chose to house my animals in a rack system. Instead I have chosen to provide the largest enclosures feasible for the few snakes I keep. Incidentally I only keep 13 snakes representing 7 genera. In those enclosures I provide not only the branches or rock crevices as each species might need, but where possible I furnish the enclosures with live plants, preferably from the same geographic locale as the snake. I get nitpicky enough about the plants that for example I won't use a new world plant in an enclosure housing an African species.

Ultimately, it comes down what one wants out of the hobby. I won't make a false characterization and say that a rack system user doesn't derive as much pleasure from the hobby as I do, that would be plain silly. I know plenty of people who house their animals in spartan accomodations and enjoy keeping snakes just as much as I do. I'm just a herp hobbyist of a different stripe in that I'm taking a different approach than many others choose to and I feel that my attention to designing and building the largest enclosures I can for the species I house allows me to observe some natural behaviors that many other keepers of the same species may never see because they house their animals in smaller more minimalistic enclosures. For me there is the added dimension of trying to design a highly realistic and accurate portrayal of the animal's natural habitat.

Ultimately it comes back to what you want out of the hobby of keeping snakes. Keeping snakes in a rack system is not wrong where the individual snakes needs are considered and met properly. However, I believe there should be more to keeping snakes than simply providing the bare minimum even if they do appear to thrive. Because, if a little attention to detail is given and some time and effort are put in then a keeper can create a habitat for a snake that is both aesthetically pleasing (to the keeper), but which by virtue of its design and size may also reward the keeper with being able to witness behaviors not seen by the keeper who houses the same species in a plastic box in a rack.

Matt Campbell

I keep snakes in both kinds of enclosures. Some that are "natural" display settings with lots of plants, limbs, etc. (Chondropythons), some in bigger enclosures (active snakes like Drymarchon), some in medium sized enclosures with hiding areas and not much more (adult milk snakes and kingsnakes) and some in racks (juveniles, fossorials, etc.).

I was under the impression that ball pythons were ambush predators. They would therefore do very little "foraging", and would instead pick a likely vantage point, and sit there, and wait for food to wander by.