Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Jeremy and Sean – I saved everything you wrote on the ultrasound subject, as I’m sure others did as well. This will be my last lengthy post on this, but I did want to say “thanks” – your help is truly appreciated.

I still am not sure what to do about Missy. I guess I’ll stick with Plan A and see what she looks like in March. If there is no change, I will ask my vet to remove the ova. After all this time, I just can’t see them doing anything in the way of making babies. If they are infertile, I believe they should come out. I don’t know what else to do.

It is interesting that no one has commented on the x-rays. There were a few requests here, and I received quite a number of them privately, to post the x-rays. Oh well.

Sean, I’m still on the fence about getting one of those ultrasounds like yours. With my small collection, I’m trying to decide if the “fun” quotient would be worth the expense. My vet has told me he will give me lessons on its usage and that is a dangerous incentive for my pocketbook

Jeremy, I thought one of your probes was a transrectal, but I couldn’t remember. I do remember what nice images you got – I’m sure my vet is tired of hearing about your nice images...hehe, but he is a good sport and it’s not his fault their probe shorted out.

I agree that these boas are fascinating critters and I have only scratched the surface. The successes are truly blessings and the failures can be invaluable learning experiences (once one completes therapy after losing a litter of Motleys and T pos. hets). Jeremy, I know you were devastated after that. I would have needed Post Trauma, especially after seeing that the babies were perfectly formed and full term. I hope you find some answers in this tragedy.

Regarding closely held secrets – the horse show world acclimated me to that mindset and I understand it. The difference is that the secrets held close in boa breeding are lessons learned through hard work over time. This knowledge has been gained the old fashioned way. ((On the other hand - training secrets involving show horses of almost every breed often involve unimaginable horror and torture that John Q Public could never fathom, watching from the rail. There is tremendous pressure for trainers to produce overnight sensations. The monetary rewards are intoxicating and the horses are the victims of heinous atrocities. When I became aware of what really goes on, I stopped showing. My last show mare finished in the top 5 in the world and we did it the old fashioned way – time and humane training. My horses are my friends and you don’t hurt your friends. To continue showing and look the other way, was something I couldn’t do.))

Regarding diseases, death and IBD – Jeremy, I agree with you completely. I would rather see this discussed and rehashed into the ground, so that we might learn more. The stigma is preventing us all from learning - and money, of course. People’s attitude about IBD reminds me of when Aids was first discovered. I lived in Houston then, and at that time, we had the nation’s second largest gay community. It was the whole Chicken Little and the sky is falling in, paranoia. There were some very wild assumptions being made before we had some answers about the disease. IBD is a terrible thing and it is too bad there is no funding to support researchers in finding a possible cure, or at least some concrete answers about how it works and is transmitted. Like you said, there is a lot of hush, hush – looking the other way – denial – and paranoia born of our overall ignorance. It is a sad thing.

The thing that scares me the most are the boas that are asymptomatic carriers, who look and act perfectly normal, and may or may not, ever manifest symptoms. The thought that these animals can pass on this virus to offspring is frightening. It is one thing when you have an animal who is obviously ill, but to know that some can carry this virus for *years????* undetected, until one day when a stressor triggers it - or maybe that never happens and the animal dies of what appears to be natural causes. How many of its babies are carriers and how will develop outward symptoms? We need answers and solutions.

I have decided to take a radical approach with my own collection and have them all tested. I realize this cannot provide me with an absolute 100% guarantee because that doesn’t exist in testing a living boa. However, I will feel better knowing I did what I could to assure myself that all my seemingly healthy boas are not carriers.

How many times has this scenario played out in our boa world?
***An animal is purchased and appears healthy. Down the road, weeks? – months?, it develops an illness/disorder that is common to IBD or it dies with no symptoms. The buyer is naturally devastated and searches for answers and/or monetary compensation. The seller says, “Why, all my animals are healthy and I have NEVER had IBD in MY collection. The boa you purchased must have gotten the virus from one of your animals.” What to do? The buyer also claims his animals are healthy and none have ever shown signs of illness. He adds that his husbandry is excellent and the new animal has been separated from the others in a quarantine situation the entire time. The problem is, he can’t prove it and is basically S.O.L.***

This is bad enough when the boa has just been a beloved pet that didn’t cost an arm and a leg. It is another thing when that animal did cost an arm and a leg, and the buyer is stuck in a catch 22 with no hope of recovery. I liken these “arm/leg” animals who are purchased primarily for breeding and producing more “arm/leg animals” to a prize bull a rancher might buy to be his herd sire and produce higher quality calves. The rancher buys this animal for what it will produce IN ADULTHOOD. If the bull has a disease that will likely prevent it from reaching adulthood and reproducing, then what? Fortunately with most mammals like cattle, horses, dogs, etc. we have conquered most of the mystery illnesses and there are tests that can be done so that one can know they are buying a healthy animal free of genetic disorders, syndromes and viruses.

With boas there is no such peace of mind. There is a lot of “out on a limb trust” that goes with buying these animals. When the animal’s health goes south, it’s the buyer’s word against the seller’s word. Who wins?

For me - I want to know “as best I can” that my breeders are clear and their babies are clear. I know that my animals appear to be healthy, but I can’t see inside them to know what lurks under the surface – no one can. That is why I want to have them all tested – for my peace of mind and for those who buy their babies. It is still not a 100% guarantee, but a liver, esophageal and gastric mucosa biopsy, and blood panel is way better than nothing and it is the right thing for me to do. Looking the other way, hush-hush and denial is crap when people are forking over lots of hard earned dollars for their dream boa. At some point in time, ethics, accountability, and integrity must play a part in this as well.

Enough typing. I truly wish there was more open dialogue on this subject so we could learn more and all be on the same page. I wish for funding so our dedicated researchers could find the answers that ARE there.

Thanks again for everyone’s input on the "Missy" thing. I’m off my soapbox and no more Dead Sea Scrolls.
-----
Linda Hedgpeth
lindafh@frontiernet.net
Sierra Serpents

"Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away"

Really, great posts.
Very informative to say the least. I love your attention to details.
I agree, IBD should be talked about till it is fully understood. I just wish there was more funding for it. (Which gives me an idea.)
Thanks sister!
John
-----
"To be the best..........You must lose your mind."

Excellent thread.More needed.Marcus .P.S I think a donation/fundraiser type vehicle for research of IBD is an excellent and worthy cause.Take care.

great posts these last couple of days. Definitely some worthwhile reading. Thanks for taking the time to post.

Brett

Linda, Boy do you really bring up some very important issues. You opened up the Pandora Box mentioning something like the ethical issues of having animals tested. I would love to type everything I have learned on IBD since having my FIRST necropsy and Biopsy done in 1996. Boy did I spend a lot of Time, money and brain power going over all options.

I have also put down a few animals and babies just for the benefit of the litters. I know this sounds awful, but it really is in the best interest of the whole collection to have a few babies test. Gaylynn Carter (My assistant and manager) especially hates it because she has a great love for EVERY snake, and it is hard for her to put a snake down. So, I have to be the "Bad Guy" when it comes to this. LOL

To prevent another NOVEL by me, I would like to point out just a few things.

After speaking with Scott Stahl (THE BEST REPTILE VET in the WORLD) I have come to the conclusion that it really isn't in my best interest to have EVERY SINGLE animal tested with a Biopsy. There are reasons that make it impossible for you to really know, and even if INCLUSION BODY cells are found, that doesn't mean that it is an A Symptomatic Carriers. Inclusions can be found in Many Cells of Boas, and I have had some pretty good reason why I wouldn’t even think about doing that Linda, but I promised this wouldn’t be a novel. I’ll try to get in touch with you because I haven’t got replies from your emails.

I know this may sound unethical, however, IF IBD was a serious problem, it would have wiped out collections that are large. It hasn’t done that at ALL. If you practice SOUND husbandry, and pay attention to all the breeding animals, it would be quite easy to ISOLATE the cause and eliminate it. That Is exactly what I do, and I can vouch that is what a few other Larger Breeders of Boas do.

There are also some really good tests that throw out the theory if this really being a RETROVIRUS. In order to Prove this, would cost ½ a Million alone, with no guarantee of Answers. Just my opinion.

If you deal with Live animals you really have to assume that many can get sick. IBD is commonly MIS Diagnosed because the animal dies from other causes, and Inclusion Body Cells are found. Therefore it is diagnosed as IBD, when it could easily be something else. It takes a lot of money to get a Guarantee that it was the IBD VIRUS that killed the animal. That is why it is important to KNOW the source of your animals. That source should guarantee that the animals were kept with good husbandry practices.

Food for Thought. Jeremy Stone

Jeremy, I compliment you on your honesty and integrity to do the right thing for this business. Very few would do what you are doing and even fewer would talk about it. I agree totally. The snakes will benifit from the work you are doing. If everyone took the animals benifit into consideration as you have, we would probably stop this disease in its tracks. Great post again, Andy Federico : AJF Reptiles

Very good posts!!!
A all around!
-----
Greg Holland
G&M HERPS
www.gmherps.com
gmherps@sbcglobal.net

Linda,
...I looked at the Xrays you posted the other day and to me they look like large mature but likely unfertilized ova that have passed down into the oviducts. Rather than being unferitlized they could have been fertilized and died early in development leaving her with masses that look grossly the same as unfertilized ones. In the past I cut open one big dead obviouly gravid Boa Constrictor that had masses that looked just like what those look like in your Xray. You can have your vet remove these if you want but as large as the boa is she should have no trouble eventually delivering them as slugs. There is always the risk that letting her carry them they can open up and start decomposing and either damage her oviducts or cause an infection. Of course with surgical removal there is also the danger of possible infection or damage to the oviducts. Seems like a coin toss situation to me.
...I have been reading the ultrasound posts with great interest. I use a simple bladder scanning ultrasound regularly at work but have only some experience with ultrasound machines that would work for scanning snakes looking for follicles. I think most of the problems with getting good images could be solved if you could get a really good uniform thickness gel seal between the probe and the snake. Of course this is impossible due to the shape of snake scales. It also may be that the varying thickness of the scales and area between them may be interfering with good ultrasound transmission.
...I have produced lots of live baby boids but also lots of dead fullterm ones and an awful lot of slugs. I make a point to try to learn from every one of my mistakes and failures. I have lost gravid snakes in the past and always opened them up to see if I could learn something. I also slice up every slug my Rainbows have ever laid and also open up every smelly dead python egg.
....Dr Eliot Jacobsen at the University of Florida was taking donations from several sources including reptile shows for several years to help fund his IBD research. AFAIK he has done more research on IBD than anyone else. I do not know if his IBD research continues.
Jeff

>>Jeremy and Sean – I saved everything you wrote on the ultrasound subject, as I’m sure others did as well. This will be my last lengthy post on this, but I did want to say “thanks” – your help is truly appreciated.
>>
>>I still am not sure what to do about Missy. I guess I’ll stick with Plan A and see what she looks like in March. If there is no change, I will ask my vet to remove the ova. After all this time, I just can’t see them doing anything in the way of making babies. If they are infertile, I believe they should come out. I don’t know what else to do.
>>
>>It is interesting that no one has commented on the x-rays. There were a few requests here, and I received quite a number of them privately, to post the x-rays. Oh well.
>>
>>Sean, I’m still on the fence about getting one of those ultrasounds like yours. With my small collection, I’m trying to decide if the “fun” quotient would be worth the expense. My vet has told me he will give me lessons on its usage and that is a dangerous incentive for my pocketbook
>>
>>Jeremy, I thought one of your probes was a transrectal, but I couldn’t remember. I do remember what nice images you got – I’m sure my vet is tired of hearing about your nice images...hehe, but he is a good sport and it’s not his fault their probe shorted out.
>>
>>I agree that these boas are fascinating critters and I have only scratched the surface. The successes are truly blessings and the failures can be invaluable learning experiences (once one completes therapy after losing a litter of Motleys and T pos. hets). Jeremy, I know you were devastated after that. I would have needed Post Trauma, especially after seeing that the babies were perfectly formed and full term. I hope you find some answers in this tragedy.
>>
>>Regarding closely held secrets – the horse show world acclimated me to that mindset and I understand it. The difference is that the secrets held close in boa breeding are lessons learned through hard work over time. This knowledge has been gained the old fashioned way. ((On the other hand - training secrets involving show horses of almost every breed often involve unimaginable horror and torture that John Q Public could never fathom, watching from the rail. There is tremendous pressure for trainers to produce overnight sensations. The monetary rewards are intoxicating and the horses are the victims of heinous atrocities. When I became aware of what really goes on, I stopped showing. My last show mare finished in the top 5 in the world and we did it the old fashioned way – time and humane training. My horses are my friends and you don’t hurt your friends. To continue showing and look the other way, was something I couldn’t do.))
>>
>>Regarding diseases, death and IBD – Jeremy, I agree with you completely. I would rather see this discussed and rehashed into the ground, so that we might learn more. The stigma is preventing us all from learning - and money, of course. People’s attitude about IBD reminds me of when Aids was first discovered. I lived in Houston then, and at that time, we had the nation’s second largest gay community. It was the whole Chicken Little and the sky is falling in, paranoia. There were some very wild assumptions being made before we had some answers about the disease. IBD is a terrible thing and it is too bad there is no funding to support researchers in finding a possible cure, or at least some concrete answers about how it works and is transmitted. Like you said, there is a lot of hush, hush – looking the other way – denial – and paranoia born of our overall ignorance. It is a sad thing.
>>
>>The thing that scares me the most are the boas that are asymptomatic carriers, who look and act perfectly normal, and may or may not, ever manifest symptoms. The thought that these animals can pass on this virus to offspring is frightening. It is one thing when you have an animal who is obviously ill, but to know that some can carry this virus for *years????* undetected, until one day when a stressor triggers it - or maybe that never happens and the animal dies of what appears to be natural causes. How many of its babies are carriers and how will develop outward symptoms? We need answers and solutions.
>>
>>I have decided to take a radical approach with my own collection and have them all tested. I realize this cannot provide me with an absolute 100% guarantee because that doesn’t exist in testing a living boa. However, I will feel better knowing I did what I could to assure myself that all my seemingly healthy boas are not carriers.
>>
>>How many times has this scenario played out in our boa world?
>>***An animal is purchased and appears healthy. Down the road, weeks? – months?, it develops an illness/disorder that is common to IBD or it dies with no symptoms. The buyer is naturally devastated and searches for answers and/or monetary compensation. The seller says, “Why, all my animals are healthy and I have NEVER had IBD in MY collection. The boa you purchased must have gotten the virus from one of your animals.” What to do? The buyer also claims his animals are healthy and none have ever shown signs of illness. He adds that his husbandry is excellent and the new animal has been separated from the others in a quarantine situation the entire time. The problem is, he can’t prove it and is basically S.O.L.***
>>
>>This is bad enough when the boa has just been a beloved pet that didn’t cost an arm and a leg. It is another thing when that animal did cost an arm and a leg, and the buyer is stuck in a catch 22 with no hope of recovery. I liken these “arm/leg” animals who are purchased primarily for breeding and producing more “arm/leg animals” to a prize bull a rancher might buy to be his herd sire and produce higher quality calves. The rancher buys this animal for what it will produce IN ADULTHOOD. If the bull has a disease that will likely prevent it from reaching adulthood and reproducing, then what? Fortunately with most mammals like cattle, horses, dogs, etc. we have conquered most of the mystery illnesses and there are tests that can be done so that one can know they are buying a healthy animal free of genetic disorders, syndromes and viruses.
>>
>>With boas there is no such peace of mind. There is a lot of “out on a limb trust” that goes with buying these animals. When the animal’s health goes south, it’s the buyer’s word against the seller’s word. Who wins?
>>
>>For me - I want to know “as best I can” that my breeders are clear and their babies are clear. I know that my animals appear to be healthy, but I can’t see inside them to know what lurks under the surface – no one can. That is why I want to have them all tested – for my peace of mind and for those who buy their babies. It is still not a 100% guarantee, but a liver, esophageal and gastric mucosa biopsy, and blood panel is way better than nothing and it is the right thing for me to do. Looking the other way, hush-hush and denial is crap when people are forking over lots of hard earned dollars for their dream boa. At some point in time, ethics, accountability, and integrity must play a part in this as well.
>>
>>Enough typing. I truly wish there was more open dialogue on this subject so we could learn more and all be on the same page. I wish for funding so our dedicated researchers could find the answers that ARE there.
>>
>>Thanks again for everyone’s input on the "Missy" thing. I’m off my soapbox and no more Dead Sea Scrolls.
>>-----
>>Linda Hedgpeth
>>lindafh@frontiernet.net
>>Sierra Serpents
>>
>>"Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away"

I have suspected this. I don't know if I can wait or should wait much longer for her to expel them. I surely don't want an infection to develop. I think I'd rather take the risk of the surgery since it's been so long already. Thanks again.
-----
Linda Hedgpeth
lindafh@frontiernet.net
Sierra Serpents

"Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away"

Linda,

Thanks for posting all of this information over the last few days. I did see the X-Rays and I am glad that you posted them because I had never seen x-rays of follicles before. I am always thrilled to see stuff that I have never seen, especially if I can learn from it... so THANKS!!

As for the ultrasound info, I am glad that I could help with my recent personal observations as I think it also helped several others who read/post here on KS. Thanks to all of you who e-mailed about this stuff with comments and more questions, those of you who have not yet received a response... you will! I am trying to take the time to answer the questions as best I can. Also... I would like to thank Jeremy Stone for the information that he shared with me some months ago when I was "green" with my ultrasound. I was doing quite well with Ball and other pythons but I just didn't know how close these were to Boas and Jeremy told me the differences in detail. so... THANKS!

Linda, I know exactly how you feel as I debated the ultrasound purchase for the last few years only coming to the conclusion that our collection wasn't mature enough to justify it. Now that I have this one part of me is glad that I waited but the other part wishes I had it many years ago. I still have a lot of questions about my snakes that they will answer for me in time. I just want to keep watching them and doing it the "old school" way so that I can figure out these mysteries in my head. When I know more so will my friends and colleagues. So hang in there with your vet... sounds like he is a great guy. You will make the right choice for when/if to get your own machine and when you do you won't need much help because it is really quite simple.

As for the IBD thing... I have had SO many long conversations with Linda, Jeremy and MANY others including Vets, researchers and just regular ole boa lovers like us all and we always come to the same conclusion. It is a PROBLEM! I don't think that it is the end of the world but should be the end of ignorance. NO ONE with a Boa collection consisting of 1 to infinite numbers of Boas can say that their collection is IBD FREE! NO ONE! These animals could be lurking in any collection and be asymptomatic. The key is proper husbandry. NO MITES and NO FLUID TRANSMISSION. Be careful about fecal matter, water bowls, saliva and blood. But what about breeding?? We know it can be transfered sexually in Boas through copulation and we also know that it can be passed from mother to offspring. So what do we do? I think Jeremy has a good point with testing normal siblings to high-end morphs. This is a painful and depressing thing but it is for the "greater good" of all of us. Like Linda, I would like to have every animal tested. However the specimen in question may only have the inclusions present in the brain and spine and they may not have passed onto the other organs yet. It the test comes back positive you know for sure the animal has it if it comes back negative does the animal still have it? Did we miss it? Has it not had a chance to spread to the organs we had tested? Man... this stuff makes my head spin!

MORE RESEARCH! I would like to know WHO is accepting donations to this research. I would like to start participating in an IBD Research Fundraiser! This affects all of us not just those of us breeding these snakes for a living. We need to get this stuff out there... the initials I-B-D bring out fear in those who hear them in this community. The main problem is... very few of us really know the COLD HARD FACTS about it and how it affects US. Ignorance about IBD will RUIN this business. Lets all try to learn more...

Thank you Linda, Jeremy and others for your thoughts and knowledge on these subjects. There is far too much money changing hands in this business today to keep these issues idle and hidden. If we don't start learning then we as well as our boas will start dying.

Don't let IBD get ya down! Learn about it!!

Thanks everyone...
-----
Sean Bradley
Owner : EbN
www.ExoticsByNature.com
www.BallPythonMorphs.com
www.CornSnakeMorphs.com

As far as donations, I always accept them just send me cash. Joking aside, I agree we need to raise some money for this, I think the biggest problem is the amount of money that would have to be generated to get something started. Thank you all for the meaningful posts the last couple days, I am still reading them. I thought I had the wrong forum at first, I believe their has been more useful information posted in the last few days then the two months before this. Thanks. Craig

I have seen some prime rib, choice filets and some gristle. If it weren't for all the typing involved, it would be a delightful meal.

>>As far as donations, I always accept them just send me cash. Joking aside, I agree we need to raise some money for this, I think the biggest problem is the amount of money that would have to be generated to get something started. Thank you all for the meaningful posts the last couple days, I am still reading them. I thought I had the wrong forum at first, I believe their has been more useful information posted in the last few days then the two months before this. Thanks. Craig
-----
Linda Hedgpeth
lindafh@frontiernet.net
Sierra Serpents

"Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away"

Your post certainly implies that if people don't get the testing you advocate that they are not doing the correct thing. When there is no relaible test for the disease, no proof of it's means of transfer and no proof that isolates can transfer the disease(from the IBD fact sheet)I don't feel comfortable subjecting animals to invasive procedures that may have no diagnostic meaning. What if you test all of your animals and none of them have inclusions? Does that prove that the animals still don't harbour the virus in other tissues or at amounts that aren't detectable by the limitted sampleing done. Furthermore is it conclusively know that there is only one strain of the virus and that has a uniform virulence in all of the boids. Varients of the virus with different virulence could easily have an identical histolgic appearance meaning that animals that would never transmit a dangerous virus would be destroyed for no good reason. I am afraid that IBD is a diagnosis that is more frequently made than warrented like. I am not aware of the long term studies that have been performed on boas that show that exposure to all of the chemicals we expose them too isn't the frequent cause of their demise. Do you know conclusively that the plastic that you keep them in or the water that you give them or the bedding that you keep them on isn't contributing to their disease. Symptoms from many different causes can have a similar appearance and if IBD is so prevalent then why haven't more collections been wiped especially where animals that have been co-existing with others are found to have the disease.

One whole aspect of this discussion that I haven't heard mentioned at all is that we are working with genetic mutations. I know of no data that has sytematically looked at the different mutations we are working with and proven that they are essentially normal other than a pattern or color trait. You showed xrays of your Motley female below. Do you know from proven data that Motley boas are not more radiosensitive than other boas and that xraying the mother will have absolutley no effect on the growth or reproduction of the babies? There is probably exisiting data about xrays not affecting breeding, although probably very limmited, but I would be very surprised if there is data for different genetic mutations. How do you know the given morph when exposed in utero to xrays won't develop sarcomas or other diseases 10-20 years down the road?

I am all for gaining a better understanding of diseases and the health of our animals but I think we should wait until data is really in before we do invasive tests on animals and question the ethics of other breeders.

Bill Kirby

Bill,
....Excellent post! I could not find anything in it that is not exactly the way I think.
Jeff

>>Your post certainly implies that if people don't get the testing you advocate that they are not doing the correct thing. When there is no relaible test for the disease, no proof of it's means of transfer and no proof that isolates can transfer the disease(from the IBD fact sheet)I don't feel comfortable subjecting animals to invasive procedures that may have no diagnostic meaning. What if you test all of your animals and none of them have inclusions? Does that prove that the animals still don't harbour the virus in other tissues or at amounts that aren't detectable by the limitted sampleing done. Furthermore is it conclusively know that there is only one strain of the virus and that has a uniform virulence in all of the boids. Varients of the virus with different virulence could easily have an identical histolgic appearance meaning that animals that would never transmit a dangerous virus would be destroyed for no good reason. I am afraid that IBD is a diagnosis that is more frequently made than warrented like. I am not aware of the long term studies that have been performed on boas that show that exposure to all of the chemicals we expose them too isn't the frequent cause of their demise. Do you know conclusively that the plastic that you keep them in or the water that you give them or the bedding that you keep them on isn't contributing to their disease. Symptoms from many different causes can have a similar appearance and if IBD is so prevalent then why haven't more collections been wiped especially where animals that have been co-existing with others are found to have the disease.
>>
>>One whole aspect of this discussion that I haven't heard mentioned at all is that we are working with genetic mutations. I know of no data that has sytematically looked at the different mutations we are working with and proven that they are essentially normal other than a pattern or color trait. You showed xrays of your Motley female below. Do you know from proven data that Motley boas are not more radiosensitive than other boas and that xraying the mother will have absolutley no effect on the growth or reproduction of the babies? There is probably exisiting data about xrays not affecting breeding, although probably very limmited, but I would be very surprised if there is data for different genetic mutations. How do you know the given morph when exposed in utero to xrays won't develop sarcomas or other diseases 10-20 years down the road?
>>
>>I am all for gaining a better understanding of diseases and the health of our animals but I think we should wait until data is really in before we do invasive tests on animals and question the ethics of other breeders.
>>
>>Bill Kirby

You bring out some great points in your post. I have always enjoyed reading them and have wished you would post more.

Jeremy brought up the issue regarding IBD and attitudes about looking the other way. I agreed that many of his points are right on target and added my feelings to the pot.

I also said testing “was right for me”. Never, did I say it was right for him or you. I only have a small handful of adults and “I choose” to have them tested. Never did I say others should. You and Jeremy and whomever out there, who have been doing this a long time, have much more experience with this disease than I. Since IBD is often found in the liver, I chose to include it in my testing for my animals. I remember admitting that there is no guarantee either way that it will be found or that animal is clear. There are a handful of excellent people who have learned to identify IBD lesions pretty well.

I wasn’t directing the ethics part toward anyone specifically. However, everyone I have EVER talked to about this has relayed stories that are very similar to some of the points made. I have been reading about IBD issues, wars and debates on the internet since I began my collection again in 2000. If it hits close to home for some, that’s their issue. IBD may not be the scary monster to some of the bigger breeders as it is to some hobbyists with small collections. If I offended you with my comments about accountability and ethics, I’m sorry. They weren’t directed at anyone specifically….but I said that before. However, anyone who says the “hobby” hasn’t had a pesky little ethics problem relating to IBD has been living on Mars.

Missy had the hard bulge/lump in her midsection beginning in July, before I put him back with her in mid August. The bulge stayed in place and its appearance remained the same until early-mid January when it started getting smaller. That is why I originally had her x-rayed, for Christ’s sake. I cannot say that the x-rays did or didn’t damage anything, but it was the only way – at the time – for us to see what it was. I believe I also said before, I was afraid it was a tumor for a while. You are a pathologist – I am a lay person. Perhaps you would have done something else. I chose this.

In closing, it was not my intention to “imply” that you or whomever should have their animals tested. I said it was right for me. If one of my females is a carrier, I would like to know now – if I can – before I breed her or sell babies down the road – and deal with that heartbreak. There is a possibility the testing would tell me this. There is a possibility it won’t.

I have long wondered if IBD is genetically linked in another way. (For instance, like SCIDS in Arabians. It is a genetic defect that inhibits DNA repair. Animals can be negative, carriers and positives – the positives always die within the first few months of life. Their immune system is compromised and they almost always die from respiratory infections as foals.) It took researchers 25 years to unlock the secrets of SCIDS in Arabians. Now we have a test and people can make informed breeding decisions. Now the hysteria is gone and replaced by knowledge.

If I offended you, I apologize. Mr Hershey will always be my first love and if John ever can’t keep him, he will come right back here and stay until he dies an old cuddly lap snake.

Now, I’m going to go visit my mother and see if she knows me today.

>>Your post certainly implies that if people don't get the testing you advocate that they are not doing the correct thing. When there is no relaible test for the disease, no proof of it's means of transfer and no proof that isolates can transfer the disease(from the IBD fact sheet)I don't feel comfortable subjecting animals to invasive procedures that may have no diagnostic meaning. What if you test all of your animals and none of them have inclusions? Does that prove that the animals still don't harbour the virus in other tissues or at amounts that aren't detectable by the limitted sampleing done. Furthermore is it conclusively know that there is only one strain of the virus and that has a uniform virulence in all of the boids. Varients of the virus with different virulence could easily have an identical histolgic appearance meaning that animals that would never transmit a dangerous virus would be destroyed for no good reason. I am afraid that IBD is a diagnosis that is more frequently made than warrented like. I am not aware of the long term studies that have been performed on boas that show that exposure to all of the chemicals we expose them too isn't the frequent cause of their demise. Do you know conclusively that the plastic that you keep them in or the water that you give them or the bedding that you keep them on isn't contributing to their disease. Symptoms from many different causes can have a similar appearance and if IBD is so prevalent then why haven't more collections been wiped especially where animals that have been co-existing with others are found to have the disease.
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>>One whole aspect of this discussion that I haven't heard mentioned at all is that we are working with genetic mutations. I know of no data that has sytematically looked at the different mutations we are working with and proven that they are essentially normal other than a pattern or color trait. You showed xrays of your Motley female below. Do you know from proven data that Motley boas are not more radiosensitive than other boas and that xraying the mother will have absolutley no effect on the growth or reproduction of the babies? There is probably exisiting data about xrays not affecting breeding, although probably very limmited, but I would be very surprised if there is data for different genetic mutations. How do you know the given morph when exposed in utero to xrays won't develop sarcomas or other diseases 10-20 years down the road?
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>>I am all for gaining a better understanding of diseases and the health of our animals but I think we should wait until data is really in before we do invasive tests on animals and question the ethics of other breeders.
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>>Bill Kirby
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Linda Hedgpeth
lindafh@frontiernet.net
Sierra Serpents

"Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away"