Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I am posting this in referrence to Linda's post below. Some people had questions concerning IBD. The following link has some good information about IBD. At the bottom of the page is some contact information for Dr. Elliott Jacobson who is the leading researcher of IBD. He has answered questions for me in the past and I believe accepts donations for his work in IBD research. Thought some of you would find this information helpful.
Steve
IBD link

Here is the Problem with This!!!!

That information is QUITE outdated. As much as I admire Mr Jacobson, his work is quite expensive, and the same test he usually requests to guarantee that it is INCLUSION BODY DISEASE, can be done for HUNDREDS of dollars less. I sent him a few animals in the late 90's. Completely stressed out I was lucky to find that my animals, DID NOT have Inclusions present in the BIOSPY. Even though one of those animals I witnessed COPULATING many times with the PEARL BOA who died with INCLUSION BODIES PRESENT, came back NEGATIVE. However, he told me that it could still have them down the road, which was EXTREEMLY frustrating for me to hear. Two years later I euthanised him because I just didn't want that risk. He was sent off and tested, and again he was NEGATIVE. I don't want to make accusations, but I think a lot of the work he has done and the conclusions he has made would make anyone NEVER want to even keep a Boa, much less Breed one. I also don't agree with some of his findings. I don't want to type another novel, so I'll save it.

I have found Cal Berkly has been doing a lot more valuable research and getting down to some better answers. Although 24K was given to the IBD research so far in FL, I couldn't find any accountabilty as to what the money was applied exactly for, and how each study was conducted. I asked 2 times, but couldn't get a satisfactory answer. I could have been more proactive, but I thought it was better to go to my family phisician, and get some XANAX, Valium or any other mind altering drug. I then thought of eating some Hemp brownies that some Hippy makes and sells outside of CAL BERKLEY, but my wife reminded me, that I shouldn't for other religious reasons!!!! This is a JOKE!!!! J/K!!!!!!

I wish I could give you CONCLUSIVE answers to the IBD virus. However, I can't. I have come to the conclusion after the council of a very well established Herp Vet, Mr. Stahl, that it was UNDO stress and completely irresponsible FOR ME to biospy perfectly healthy animals. Instead, I'm using the process of elimination in very controled Breeding. I have found my sanity has been restored since going to that method.

Here is a MAJOR problem I see with BIOPSY. I saw Linda's response to Bill, and Linda, you know I love you and you have EVERY RIGHT to do what you feel comfortable with your animals. However, I PERSONALLY feel it is extreme undo stress. Even Stahl mentioned it is GREAT stress. HE is very experienced and has done HUNDREDS of Biopsys. He can do it with only making an 1 inch incision. (When I had it done to 3 animals in 97, they were Butchered). What happens if you come up with INCLUSION cells in the liver. With JACOBSONS findings, it is still inconclusive that the animal is an A sympotmatic Carrier, and can pass that on. IF inclusions are found, it has an INCREASED chance, but untill you really decalsify the skull to get the BRAIN tissue (which can't be done on a live animal) you won't be able to know CONCLUSIVELY. Unless new information has come about that I am not aware of, then this is just a chance I would not take.

I think Responsible breeding is MY BEST chance of elliminating my chances of infecting my collection with the IBD animal. Already knowing that ANY of my PERFECTLY healthy Animals could be HARBORING the Virus is enough to make me go out and RALPH!!!! No offense to Ralphs out there!!!! I have decided that these animals were worth the Risk, and should I have a problem down the road with a customer that I can conclusivly find is one that I gave him, then I'll make sure I deal with that when the time comes in a more then fair way.

(I know I opened up a can a worms there, and I don't expect other breeders to chime in. I WOULDN'T. Now, I have to admit that my day at the office was unproductive due to the FORUM!!!! DARNIT!!!! Jeremy

Dangit, it is now 12 in the EAST, so most people won't be able to reply untill tomorrow. I then realize that I may have another UNPRODUCTIVE work day due to the BOA FORUM!!!!

Jeremy,
I would like to thank you and everyone else for all the information and the time it took you all these last couple of days to provide it. I think the posts over the last few days have some of the most information I have seen on the Boa Forum in a long time. I have lurked on this forum for several years posting pics and questions here and there. Having dealt with IBD on two occasions, I do believe it to be a threat, not only to large-scale breeders but also to hobbyists like myself.
I posted the web link for Dr. Jacobson because he was the only Dr. that I was aware of working on identifying this disease. Are you aware of ongoing research being conducted now and how the reptile community as a whole could donate to this cause? You mentioned Cal Berkley and Dr. Stahl but did not state whether they were conducting research that we could all possibly contribute to. It is amazing the amount of people into reptiles now days and I am sure many of them would give to a just cause if provided with information.

On a lighter note, could you post some pictures of your “boawoman” hypos. My female is due in April and I was wondering if you have breed yours yet and the outcome if you have.
Thanks,
Steve

Jeremy Stone brings up some valid points and Dr. Scott Stahl is very well respected in the herp vet community. Can't go wrong having him as your vet!

You must remember that vet med has advanced alot since 1997 and both Stahl and Jacobson are on the leading edge. In the past, abdomenal surgury was needed to take a biopsy. Endoscopy has been available in vet med for a number of years now and benefits from the small incision that you have mentioned.

As per the information and studies by Jacobson being outdated; well, there is two main points to respond to this. First of all, yes, it is outdated. This is because funds for researching IBD are quite limited when other diseases are deamed more important to study (mainly mammmilian diseases). I wouldn't go to far with your conspiracy theory as to where sponsorship money was used 5 or 10 years ago. Only the people who donated the money have a right to that knowledge. Second of all, IBD knowledge in general is incomplete. For instance, we still have not identified the pathogen at fault. "One leading theory is that it is a retrovirus, but there are lots of retroviruses out there in lots of species that have not been associated with problems yet. The presence of a retrovirus does not equal disease, and if you look at a species and don't find a retrovirus, you weren't looking hard enough." Without knowing what causes the disease, a definitive test to diagnose it is lacking. Even the aforementioned brain tissue biopsy is not definitive. Lots of things cause inclusion bodies.

To summerize;
A 100% diagnoses of IBD is not currently possible. Inclusion bodies that are similar among animals showing similar symptoms are used to say an animal has IBD. Not all animals have these bodies (carriers?) but in general, if they are showing symptoms they will have the bodies in brain tissue, pancreatic tissue, liver and intestinal tissue, among others.
A negative animal is impossible to prove. Thus it is not practical to test animals that are not showing symptoms. All sick animals should be worked up by a veterinarian without jumping to IBD as an end result. All other differential diagnosis should be considered as well.

I hope this helps clear the mud a little for those interested
Ian Kanda, AHT

"quote" Dr. Jim Wellehan from the Veterinary Information Network

Thank you very much for your reply.

I wasn't saying that the FUNDS were not neeeded, and you said that ONLY those who donated would be privelaged to that information. HOw about someone who has sent 7K??? I still haven't been able to determine exaclty how the funds I sent and the aniamls donated were Used.

I appreciate your remarks. VERY INTERETING STUFF!!!!! Please post again if you have any information

Jeremy

That's awesome that you donated such a large sum of money towards IBD research (or any herp related research for that matter). Of course I had no idea and for sure you deserve some sort of budget. I'm kinda out of the picture with how you were dealt with so I won't comment, but I assume a certain amount of proffesionalism is in order here.

Thank you for your reply. My mention of the amount of money I was able to donate with Cash and Animals was not to boast. I was just saying that it was harder for me to give money would I couldn't get an account of HOW, When and WHAT studies would be further done if more money was donated. I am sure Dr. Jacobson is a great vet. I have spoken with him several times. THE PROBLEM with IBD was that is SPREAD soooo quickly to ALL the small vets who have the WEB as their information of NEW diseases. It was apperant that IBD was a HUGE problem, and that it could WIPE out Collections in MASS distruction which coudln't be Further from the truth.

I understand that there is Pressure in the Research area to put out as much information as possible, but the IBD thing got WAY out of control, and many vets and Labs were diagnosing IBD before they really new anything about it other then the EARLY information which is soo outdated.

I wish the SAME kindof PUSH to get that certain SCARY INFO out would also be used to RECALL, or explain that is ISN'T what they thought, and they can relax a little bit.

IBD is NOT a Huge problem in my opinion. It can't be ignored, but it certainly shouldn't discourage people from purchasing Animals. Especailly animals that are of great value. I know you can say that I'm saying this with MY BEST interest at heart. However, I trully believe that. IBD is NOT hard to issolate and Get rid of, if you have the PROPER HUSBANDRY.

Thanks for your posts. I thought that was VERY interesting, and I wish you would post more.

IBD, IBD, IBD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This scare seems to circulate EVERYEAR, and it causes my IBS to start acting up. Better get some Peragoric. LOL

Jeremy Stone