Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Is it possible to overfeed a young (52 inches long) burm? She's eaten 4 mice and 5 sub adult (small) rats in just under 2 months, and has grown 11 inches in this amount of time. It's as if she's got a hollow leg.Not that I'm complainin', mind you.

Quig

For burms, I think it is definitely possible to overfeed them. They tend to add girth at a relatively short length. I would only feed it a decent sized meal once per week, as that is what I do with my 4 year old burm. They don't seem to have quite the metabolism that same aged retics have, which seem almost impossible to overfeed for the first year or two. Good luck.

I only feed when she starts searching, but she seems to always be searching. Guess I'll back off a bit then. Don't want a short round burm.

I am surely no expert.....but at 4 ft long a burm shuld easily take a medium rat at least once a week right??????? So if your burm is 4 ft and 4 inches and only got 5 small rats and 4 mice thats not a lot at all.....He should of gotten 8 medium rats because there are 8 weeks in 2 months....Am i righht about all this or is what i am saying overfeeding lol.....Just most people said that was the right way to go....
Jake

Hi Jake,I actually got the burm the 26th of Dec. and there was a month from 16 Jan. to 19 Feb. that she didn't eat at all. Here's the actual schedule.....................................

2 Jan. 3 adult mice
6 Jan. 1 sub adult rat
9 Jan. 1 sub adult rat
12 Jan. 1 adult mouse
16 Jan. 1 sub adult rat
19 Feb. 1 sub adult rat
22 Feb. 2 sub adult rats

So actually while she's eating, she's only goin' 3 -4 days between meals.

Question........what do you consider small and medium rats? I don't weigh them, no gram scale yet, but the ones she's eating are about 4" body length. To me that's a small rat.

Yea...ok i think a small rat is about 75-100 grmas while medium being up to 150 grmas...any about 4 inches is good for a small rat as up to 6 is good for a medium.

Bloodboy, you are making comments that have absolutely NO scientific basis whatsoever...by what criteria are you basing your advice?...just curious. Personally, I think the feeding schedule is absolutely fine. I would much rather err on the side of slightly underfeeding a captive burm than overfeeding (that is a big reason why many have shortened life spans). Remember, the meals we feed our burms are, for the most part, far richer and high in fat than their wild counterparts. The feeding schedule that was provided is actually quite optimal and may even need to be cut back a bit as the animal gets a little older and growth begins to slow (that usually happens at around the 8-10' mark). I feed my hatchlings once a week and my older adults once or twice a month....and these are 25 year old burms (one is 35).

Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center
Lake Forest, IL

>>I am surely no expert.....but at 4 ft long a burm shuld easily take a medium rat at least once a week right??????? So if your burm is 4 ft and 4 inches and only got 5 small rats and 4 mice thats not a lot at all.....He should of gotten 8 medium rats because there are 8 weeks in 2 months....Am i righht about all this or is what i am saying overfeeding lol.....Just most people said that was the right way to go....
>>Jake
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

Thanks Rob, I've just been feeding her whenever she starts cruisin' for food. Whenever I put my hand near the cage and she imediately starts for it and starts hyperventilating I know she lookin' for a meal. So I feed her. She's also added 11 inches to her length in this amount of time, so she's growin' like a weed.

Well rob i am basing my info on a book called pythons and my local Herp shop manager....he even gave me a feeding schedule as follows....

hatchling to 30" 1 mouse every 5 days

30"-3ft. 2 mice evry week

3-4' 1 small rat a week

4-5' 1 medium rat a week

5-6' 1 large rat a week

6-7' 1 jumbo a week

7 and up an appropritae size rabbit every 2 weeks........

i think this schedule is very good fro burms...dont you??? Also a little more on the technical scale a hatchling burm until it is 6 months old should get 12x its weight every year.......6 months to a year should get 8x weight a year....1 year to 18 months should get 6x its weight and byt the timew a burm is full grown it should only eat double its weight a year...for example a 7' burm at a little over a year old...and say the 7' snake weighs arounf 10 lbs.. it should get about a 2lb rabbit every 2 weeks.......by 10 ft and almost fully grown for a male.....its hould get maybe a 4 or 5 pounder every 2 weeks.....ROb i would actually like your comments on this info please respond...thank you
Jake

Jake, actually that looks like a good feeding schedule. The point with mine was that in 14 days, from 2 Jan. to 16 Jan., she fed 5 times. Consisting of 4 mice and 3 rats. Then she didn't eat again till 19 Feb., and again on the 22nd. In otherwords she ate 4 mice and 5 rats in 18 days time. Do you not think this is overfeeding? As I said, I was just obliging the lady. As she grows I'm sure I'll have to cut back some.

Like i said i am no exspert.....But no i do not thing that is overfeeding at all...young burms eat ALOT and are using most of it to grow...older burms are lazy bums lol and use there food to survive which means they don't eat nearly as much...but a word of advise...try feeding your burm a large prey item at a feeding instead of several every few days....just my 2 cents,
Mike

Just wondering?

Less frequent feeding with larger food items would be my advice. Digesting food requires quite a bit of energy from a snake so even though the total weight may be the same, the constant state of digesting is much harder when feeding smaller more frequent meals. I only have 4 snakes, and have only owned a total of 5 in my lifetime so my hands on experience is somewhat limited compared to some, but my two 4 y/o retics seem to have much better sense of when they should be full than compared to my 4 y/o burm. She never fails to charge the glass even after what should be a very large meal. I've never seen if she will eventually get full and refuse, but she sure doesn't act like it.

Lance

Most books, and, certainly herp shop managers, who probably have a limited amount of biological backgrounds, are not basing their advice on any sort of scientific evidence, from field work working with this species, that supports their advice. Too many people make the mistake of following a formula rather than really taking the time to know their animal (which also means to know when they are hungry); most people in the hobby and even profession, have never developed those instincts where they can read their animals. The schedule you mentioned below will work for some burms and not for others. Some will get obese on that schedule while others will be constantly cruising their cages looking lean on this schedule. Why? Because every single burm is different (just like people). They may be hard wired similarly but they are also very much different from each other.

>>Well rob i am basing my info on a book called pythons and my local Herp shop manager....he even gave me a feeding schedule as follows....
>>
>>hatchling to 30" 1 mouse every 5 days
>>
>>30"-3ft. 2 mice evry week
>>
>>3-4' 1 small rat a week
>>
>>4-5' 1 medium rat a week
>>
>>5-6' 1 large rat a week
>>
>>6-7' 1 jumbo a week
>>
>>7 and up an appropritae size rabbit every 2 weeks........
>>
>>i think this schedule is very good fro burms...dont you??? Also a little more on the technical scale a hatchling burm until it is 6 months old should get 12x its weight every year.......6 months to a year should get 8x weight a year....1 year to 18 months should get 6x its weight and byt the timew a burm is full grown it should only eat double its weight a year...for example a 7' burm at a little over a year old...and say the 7' snake weighs arounf 10 lbs.. it should get about a 2lb rabbit every 2 weeks.......by 10 ft and almost fully grown for a male.....its hould get maybe a 4 or 5 pounder every 2 weeks.....ROb i would actually like your comments on this info please respond...thank you
>>Jake
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

Yes Rob i see wha5t you are saying....I don't have experioence with many many burms like you so i don't know differential of their personalities too well but i think i finally am starting to understand you....anyway i don't think i told anyone yet because i thoguht it would be frowned upon...but i gave my burm up...turns out he had internal parasites from when he was a baby...but the guy i gave him too said he was in excelent conditon and very well taken care of....I am now soon expecting a baby albino burm form prehistoric pets and i think i can take care of a snake i earned alot of money for then one that was given to me....I also will get it lon f/t prey immediately so i do not make any mistakes this time...Learn from your mistakes...thats what you are supposed to do...hopefully this will be my burm and my keeper... thanks for all your help i think that you alone have given me so much more knowledge and respect for snakes then i ever had
Jake

I thought you were getting the hint...you make things just a tad more interesting lol. My guess is Rob Carmichael will tell you not to purchase the albino. You gave up on the one you had with the first chance you got. Parasites? First snake I purchased had mites. It is what made me decide I would be putting 100% into my animals and will not let my lack of knowledge be what hurts them. So the person who got it from you now has a what???...ah, another burmese python rescue. But is it really a rescue of they turn around and sell it to the first person with an interest? Lets hope it goes to a good home on its 2nd or 3rd try. Jake, you should seriously think about this. While you may be learning a lot of info...maybe you should hold off and think about things some more. If you pay a lot more money (for a snake you will find is not worth a lot of money) you will have less money for the things you need to care for the snake. You are 15 and I bet your income isn't stable. In fact I know your income isn't stable. I remember my jobs when I was 15. I carried drops for painters. Did it all day long during the summer to get the better job the next year (when I was 16) flying to tampa florida every week to carry toilets out of apartments in the ghetto for 6$ an hour. This job was worse and this is what you can expect for the next few years. I doubt anyone is going to fly you across the country to work for them but my parents felt slave labor was the best thing for me lol. If you want to get a more expensive snake you will take care of I will be happy to sell you a pastel ball python : ) Save up this summer and I will be sure to hold a beautiful baby for ya.

Hi Jake, I'm afraid I'm going to get on the bandwagon here and advise against another burm. But I'm going to list some drop jaw gorgeous large and easier to handle snakes in case any appeal to you. (a nice bonus to any of these species is, when fully grown they won't be able to eat you out of house and home)

1. Jungle Carpet python. Get one from a good breeder, and you'll have an active, alert animal with vivid bright black and yellow coloration. Really graceful animal, grows between approximately 5-7 feet. The babies are really nippy, but they settle with gentle consistent handling. Price is probably under $250

2. Red Tail Boa. Usually calm, docile animals, I'm sure you know how they look. They're big boids, but the safety factor is a bonus, as one lone person (if competent) can safely handle a hefty female. Rough size range, males from 6-8 ft, females 8-10 but that's only a rough guess. As a bonus, you may be able to adopt one.

3. Black Rat snake. There's a form of this called leucistic, I've seen them for $200. Imagine a docile, hardy animal that is pure, patternless white with grey or black eyes that reaches 8 or so feet! And of course, the other more common morphs are just as mellow, big and hardy.

4. Florida and eastern kings. 7 feet long or so, thick bodied and powerful, relatively docile, (sorry I'm not too sure of the locality sizes and specific patterns), but everything from what looks like near black with narrow yellow bands, to what looks like yellow overlaid with delicate black lace.

Hope those recommendations help and/or inspire you. (I highly recommend the leucistic black rat snake, but of couse I'm biased. )

I don't know quite what to say about giving your burm away. I really do think you did the right thing, giving him up when the little guy is still little so the new owner can get used to all his quirks and watch him grow up.

But I think you did it for the wrong reason. A simple trip to the vet and some medication could have taken care of parasites.
You know those old wedding vows, "for better or worse, richer or poorer, in sickness and health, till death do you part"? Well, the thought of marrying a snake is either silly or icky, but the level of dedication is similar when you're talking about an animal who can see you through both college and your mid-life crisis.
Whatever you get for your new animal, don't bail out on it! If it gets parasites, take it to the vet. If it has mites, learn how to treat it. If it has a bad shed, learn how to treat it. If it chomps you, learn why it did, and avoid that situation. If it gets a respiratory infection, take it to the vet. If (heaven forbid) it contracts IBD(which is incurable and lethal), take it to the vet to euthanize it.
Animals, no matter how wonderfully they're cared for, get sick and need treatment. It's a pain in the a** but it's their nature.
Hoo boy, I'm afraid this turned into another lecture. Well, hope this helps.
P.S. Glad you're planning on using f/t for your new critter.
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0.2 chickens (Falcon & Condor)
0.2 dog mutts (half ownership, only mine when they misbehave, Lucy & Amy)
0.1 Halflinger horse (Crissy)
0.0 Arizona Mountain Kingsnake (coming soon)
1.1 parents
Still searching for 1.0 WC human

Nice long and meaningful post drosera; complete with other species briefs and suggestions! The tidbit about IBD was a bit premature in my view, but that's all opinion and I have a lot of it about IBD

To comment about the above, I also believe that more frequent smaller feedings is healthier then feeding larger items less often. You guys are right that it takes more energy, but in an obesity prone snake this is surely okay. This feeding regime also correlates closer with natural behavior, although larger prey items are occasionally taken (we've all seen the photo's )

Thanks, I try to write well and recommendations for other lovely species seemed necessary. Good point abour IBD. I can see how an uninformed misdiagnosis going either way could be disasterous.
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0.2 chickens (Falcon & Condor)
0.2 dog mutts (half ownership, only mine when they misbehave, Lucy & Amy)
0.1 Halflinger horse (Crissy)
0.0 Arizona Mountain Kingsnake (coming soon)
1.1 parents
Still searching for 1.0 WC human

I have a lot to say but I am going to bite my tongue. Lets just say that Eunectus echoed my thoughts and we'll just leave it at that.

>>Yes Rob i see wha5t you are saying....I don't have experioence with many many burms like you so i don't know differential of their personalities too well but i think i finally am starting to understand you....anyway i don't think i told anyone yet because i thoguht it would be frowned upon...but i gave my burm up...turns out he had internal parasites from when he was a baby...but the guy i gave him too said he was in excelent conditon and very well taken care of....I am now soon expecting a baby albino burm form prehistoric pets and i think i can take care of a snake i earned alot of money for then one that was given to me....I also will get it lon f/t prey immediately so i do not make any mistakes this time...Learn from your mistakes...thats what you are supposed to do...hopefully this will be my burm and my keeper... thanks for all your help i think that you alone have given me so much more knowledge and respect for snakes then i ever had
>>Jake
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL