Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hey all...Before I go any further, I'll preface this by saying that I'm not an elapid guy. I was browsing the classifieds, and happened upon an ad from a well-respected dealer. This particular ad depicted a picture of an individual free-handling a newly hatched cobra. If you've seen the ad, you know exactly which one I speak of. While I'm not positive that a newly hatched cobra could penetrate the skin with it's small fangs, (like I said I'm not an elapid guy) my big concern here is over the message that images like this send. Especially in light of all the recent hub-ub over stricter reptile laws, I'm not entirely convinced that pictures of keepers/dealers free handling their venomous charges does much in the way of placing us "hot keepers" in a high level of regard in terms of the general public.

While I certainly have no interest in "flaming" anyone over their husbandry/handling techniques (I will not mention the person/dealer, site, etc.). I will say that I am troubled because I believe images such as this only make our quest for legal fairness tougher. Regardless of what we (the venomous reptile community) know about our charges, the general public does not know this, and as such are likely to come away with a much different impression of a photo like this than we would. It doesn't take much for the public to "flip-out", especially regarding venomous snakes.

I don't believe that the person that posted the pic considered how potentially far-reaching the consequences could be for everyone involved with keeping these animals. For those that would say "blah, blah, blah" to me, I'd simply say policing this community SHOULD be OUR responsibility first, and the government's second. A bit more discretion in choosing which pictures to post might go a long way towards respectability for the community as a whole. Ok, 'nuff said.

-AzAtrox

Are you talking about the dealer who is holding the egg with the cobra's head sticking out?(albino monocled)-I wondered if they could bite while that small myself but didn't want to test it.

Ryan...

No, I'm speaking of the ad where the individual is free handling a fully independent newly hatched cobra. I'm not an elapid guy, but I do know that these animals are capable of delivering a serious bite from the minute they hatch. The ad I'm speaking of is a close up of a baby cobra, crawling within a person's outstretched fingers.

-AzAtrox

Yea, I have two things to say about that. One, in his defense, he did put a disclaimer at the bottom for "kids not to try this at home". But more importantly number two, the photo really wasnt necessary to begin with, so it's just gonna be more camel fodder for us to go up against. He's simply showing off, and thats the attitude that breeds carelessness and negative headlines.
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Tom
TCJ Herps
"The more people I meet, the more I like my snakes"

Didn't you read the bottom? "Don't try this at home or anywhere else, I'M A PROFESSIONAL snake handler". So he can't get bit, right?
Sorry, I couldn't resist, not to mention I just love those little disclaimers.

Funny you would mention that, I was just looking at that ad myself and thought "what a dumbass" the fangs CAN penetrate the webbing between finger quite well I am sure, or the edge by the cuticle. A most stupid stunt and I am suprised Kingsnake would post that pic actually.

Hi All:

I actually have seen both ad's and they both bother me. At present we are fighting to keep our hobby legal and mostly loosing the battles. Then here comes two breeders I really respect, trying to put themselves out of business indirectly by posting pictures that set a bad example. I'm sure these sites are watched by the opposition and all the good information we provide them will end up in some legislators information package on WHY private keeping of these animals should be BANNED.

Nothing like giving them all the ammunition they need. Between this sort of stuff and all the bites the Hobby is DOOMED!

Al
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The more people I meet...the better I like my venomous snakes.

Well put!! We should point out the dumb actions of others that put us all in an ill light. Handling venomous snakes freehand is dumb, and we should speak up. Hardly any of us do it, and most of us think those that do do it are idiots.

Your point about whether a new born cobra could or couldn't penetrate skin ia also a good discussion issue. For those who go by the rule "it's never been reported" "as far as we know they can't" here's my take on it, and Arizona Coral snakes are a great US example: all those data say is "it hasn't happened YET."

Why take the risk? Who is impressed by such ignorance?

There have been a number of serious bites..a few fatal from Micrurus fulvius in the American southeast. They max out at a bit beyond four feet, but most are half that or less. The old wives tales have it that they are incapable of biting. Anyone who has had an 18" corn snake draw blood can attest to the coral's ability to inflict a serious bite. Think about it. I've even had 12" Diadophis draw blood. Can a baby cobra bite? You betcher arse!

Y'all stay safe. ~~Greg~~

that hasn't been said yet? Well, I'll say my piece anyway.

I don't keep elapids (yet). However, I have no doubt that a fresh-from-the-egg cobra would have no trouble sinking his teeny little fangs right into the guy's fleshy little fingers. Would he die? Hmmmm...don't know. That's kinda besides the point though. Why the hell would you NEED to take a picture like that? Answer: there is no reason. Except ego-boosting/machoism/chest thumping.

The same dealer caused some controversy earlier when he posted a pic of a hand (don't know who's) holding not one, not two, not three, but no less than 10(!!!!) baby king cobras cupped in his hand. A bite from a single newborn monocled cobra may not end up fatal, "may" being the operating word, but a bite from a single baby king most likely will, much less 10.

Has this guy lost his mind? Someone said before (i believe it was you Al) that they couldn't believe that the owner would allow the king cobra photo to be posted...well, either he needs to fire some employees or he's gone to the dark side and is helping ban hots in his own demented way.

Abhishek Prasad

bashing Bill Haast. Why? He is the originator of unsafe handling.
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Chad Bachman

Very good point Chad....If somone tried to bash Haas they would have the whole hot herp community in arms(as if they already are'nt)

Trey Small

Again, good point Chad, but does Bill advertise his techniques with pictures over the internet? Doing your own thing in the privacy of your home is one thing, but taking photos and going "LOOK AT ME!!" is another.
Im not trying to stir up any silt, Im just pointing out the difference. From what I know, the attention goes TO Bill, rather than Bill going to the attention.
Regardless, I think we ALL agree that this is bad, hands down.
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Tom
TCJ Herps
"The more people I meet, the more I like my snakes"

Tom,
I personally have seen many pictures of Bill Hasst doing his free handling in books, tv shows, and pictures on the net. Nobody bashes him do they? not at all. I know Sean, he isnt the kind of guy to be acting macho.

Joe Switalski

Although Bills physiological situation is a little different than most folks, I guess he really doesnt deserve to be immune from flaming about freehandling either, so maybe we should criticize him too.
He may be a "legend", but it's still no excuse.
So, Bill Haas is a crazy man, and he's promoting bad techniques. There, I said it.
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Tom
TCJ Herps
"The more people I meet, the more I like my snakes"

I have no quarrel raising Haast's name in this. Do the math yourself, 1 even 2 million handlings with 168 cobra bites, not counting umpteen zillion viperid and other elapid bites..that doesn't make him a legend in my book...it makes him a very unskilled or unlucky individual.... I'm not saying that he has no skill.. so don't jump on me for that. That many interactions with snakes gives you quite a large amount of experience...there is no doubt about that. Still that many bites gives you a percentage rate that should force a little thinking along the lines...hmmm maybe this really is not a good idea? Common sense I guess...
We all have photos of that sort of thing whether it is snakes or some other iterest. They do just happen to be better left at home. Also, being on Animal Planet does not make one an expert handler.... Though I do agree that the likelihood of a bite from a snake that young would be rather slim...still.
But, I have adopted a new additude regarding the future of venomous reptiles and those who keep them.. basically, you all are crucifying yourselves and I don't much care anymore which route the govt. takes. I just piped up because Haast is not the legend he has made himself out to be...at least in my mind.

First of all, it's closer to 3 million handlings than 1. Second,
it's 170 or so bites total, not "umpteen gazillion" as you state. Third, chances are that if Bill didn't possess the immunity he does, he wouldn't do the freehandling he does, meaning he does it because his immunity enables him to. And it's not just 3 million handlings, it's 3 million milkings--- one hell of a difference.
You lecturing Bill Haast on common sense? Give me a break.

Bill Huseth

I'm sorry to have hurt your feelings Bill. but you know not what you speak of when common sense is the subject line.
I'm glad you have an accurate tally record of Mr.. Haast, thanks for your input on your idol.
Your input was negative and inflammatory, please refrain from your childish instincts.
Thank you.
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It's what you learn AFTER you know it all that counts!

Terry Phillip
Curator of Reptiles
Black Hills Reptile Gardens
Rapid City, SD.

www.reptilegardens.com

Oh, I get it. You ignore my posts as long as you can get the last word in, huh? Bill Haast my idol? As herpetology goes, you bet he is. "Negative and inflammatory"? I was responding in kind, Terry. Just because you put it across in your normal condescending tone doesn't mean it's not so. You chose to take shots at someone whose shoes you couldn't carry with a forklift.
You were naive to not expect a reply.

Bill

Not saying anything about Bill Haast but there is a timing factor and I was also talking to someone tonight about credentials. When people come and give short advice without reason or any support. My name isn't on the bottom of the page because it doesn;t matter, Im not Bill Hasst, Rom Whitacker, Mark O'shea, Lutz Dirksen, etc. but I explain my posts and I support my facts. Bill Haast isn't putting his pic on the KS classifieds during a time when every other thread on here is a news article bite or a new law. Bill Haast also has a well known and respected name to back up his actions. Just an opinion from an active member of the herp keeping community who promotes responsibility. If there is an educational even in my state, my organization is registered to display with a responsible and educational message. Might as well throw in a plug since I took the time to write this much lol.