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bsmith251 Feb 23, 2005 12:22 PM

with all the current hype surrounding henkeli specifically, I decided to drop the cash (although I got what I would consider a decent deal for the times) to fill out my ratio and add a pair... Other than the usual WC BS (skinny, dehydrated, ect), the only real qualm I have is that I SPECIFICALLY told them my priorities, in this order were 1) Original tails and 2) most weight... Those two before color and pattern ect... I was assured of my requests and that the man I talked to on the phone would pack my order to be sure I get taken care of...

So now I have a little lesson in the school of regenerated tails for those readers that don't already know this... When there is a noticeable difference in coloration starting at the break point of the tail... 99.9% of the time its a regen!... Although I'll give the company the fact that based on size alone, it did look original... It has nicely redeveloped... AND if the animal weren't so dehydrated it would have also been apparent (even to ignorant ppl) that the tail was smooth edged and not fringed... There are a couple of other indicators of a regen but they also take a trained eye…

Anyway, here is a picture of what I am talking about… It’s a really crappy shot, but you can get the idea…

Just sharing an experience!...

I HATE ordering blindly from these ppl, but overall, I did get some decent animals and the packaging was great…

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Ben

Replies (17)

flamedcrestie Feb 23, 2005 01:46 PM

really go up the back of the spine like that?
from that photo it looks like there's a "hump" or something where the tail goes up the geckos body a little.

also, i'd say that's a pretty noticeable regen. as well. not only the color change, but lack of color/pattern, the fringe as you mentioned. but regens are usually quite a bit thinner than an original, not in width, but in thickness.
good luck with them and i'm glad you had an over all good experience.

PHEve Feb 23, 2005 01:49 PM

Well Ben, like you say all and all you have HEALTHY animals, thats REAL important.

Continued Success to You !
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PHEve / Eve

bsmith251 Feb 23, 2005 09:29 PM

Not sure if healthy is the word... very stressed to say the least... the main thing is that they are "workable"... I am very happy with them overall, tonight as they starting to poke around they really showed their true colors… Here’s a quick snap of one of the males…

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Ben

PHEve Feb 24, 2005 10:17 AM

Very NICE, I like him, looking good so far.

I'm sure they will do fine, in your care! If not send them to me, hahahahha , LOL
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PHEve / Eve

Leah Feb 23, 2005 01:55 PM

So at least henkeli and lineatus regenerate. Phantasticus does not.

I would think it would be safe to assume anything in the fimbriatus complex regenerates and those in the ebanaui do not?

Makes you wonder about the other groups.
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www.wildeyereptiles.com

Chameleons, geckos & invertebrates

flamedcrestie Feb 23, 2005 02:41 PM

seeing as you have probably dealt with 50X the # of animals i have, i was just curious.
do phantasticus and ebenaui seem to drop their tails as easily as the larger species?
the first lineatus i got was very dehydrated ( this was probably 2 years ago) it dropped it's tail while i was holding it and died shortly there after. i've had one other male lineatus drop it's tail and it doing great now.
i never had satanics drop their tails but have only owned a few.
in other words what i'm getting at is.
do satanics/ebenaui seem to hold their tails rather than break them off if dehydrated or threatened? ( atleast more so than the larger of the uroplatus)
thanks
andrew

Leah Feb 23, 2005 03:27 PM

I havent had a terribly large number of uros in terms of quantity, I just keep the ones I have forever, I've only ever had 2 die in my care, so you can see how they could accumulate- lol

Honestly, I'm not sure how to answer your question, probably not the best person to ask- I have had 3 instances of tail loss. 2 of them were really badly beat new imports that did the classic tail-drop-and-die the next day, a fimbriatus and what I now believe to have been a malahelo (based on photos and descriptions provided in the Svatek book). There was only one instance of another dropping the tail, a female phant that had been shipped in the summer, and dropped the tail in the cup upon arrival.

Thats my entire tail dropping experience.. I am sure someone else has a lot more experience there than I do here and can better answer the question.
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www.wildeyereptiles.com

Chameleons, geckos & invertebrates

umop_apisdn Feb 23, 2005 05:15 PM

has anyone ever even seen an ebenaui drop a tail? or is their tail so reduced that the have lost the fracture points?

Leah Feb 24, 2005 05:49 PM

Jason has seen ebanaui lose tails.
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www.wildeyereptiles.com

Chameleons, geckos & invertebrates

umop_apisdn Feb 24, 2005 07:56 PM

thats amazing, i would have thought with such a dramatically reduced tail that perhaps the fracture point would be so reduced as well to no longer function....i wonder if ebenaui are equally as stressed as phantasticus following autotomy.

bsmith251 Feb 23, 2005 09:32 PM

Lineatus and phantasticus seem to be quick to drop their tails... I too have never heard of a phantasticus regenerating its tail... I'll check on that and get back to everyone...
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Ben

Rhacophile Feb 23, 2005 02:54 PM

I'm just curiouse if you wanted the original tails for breeding purposes? Does it make a difference if they have a regen? I would like to know because one of my females has one
Thanks, Eli

bsmith251 Feb 23, 2005 09:41 PM

Wanting an animal with an original tail is matter of personal preference mostly... But because the tail is used in the copulatory position, it is my speculation that a poorly regenerated tail could affect the male’s ability to position or hold the female in place if she is somewhat uncooperative... The animals I keep are intended for breeding so I try to maximize the opportunity of success… Having an animal with a regenerated tail, at best, may not hinder the breeding effort… But I highly doubt it helps the cause… That’s my logic...
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Ben

M n R-Reptile Feb 23, 2005 09:48 PM

I dont see that it would....about 40-50% of the shipments come in with animals with regen tails.....
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"Quality isn't Quality without customer service so I guess I sell quality"

bsmith251 Feb 24, 2005 12:13 AM

Opinions are opinions I guess... But I base mine on knowledge and scientific understanding… And I guess now I have to get all scientific…

Autotomy has evolved in numerous taxa as an answer to many different situations… ie. predator avoidance, infection, damage, ect ect… Many species in these taxa have been extensively studied and autotomy has been shown to reduce overall fitness (which is an animal’s ability to procreate) in nearly every case… It is an immediate survival benefit in most cases, but it comes with great costs…These expenses may come via compromises in locomotion or balance, lower social status in hierarchical communities, energetic costs from tissue loss and subsequent regeneration, ability to mate and the ultimate being death… And more often than not, more than one apply…

That being said, one has to understand the physiology that goes into regenerating a tail… Look at your gecko with original tail closely; you’ll notice two anterior to posterior bumps along the middle plane of the tail… These are vertebra… And if you have a gecko with a regen, look at it and you’ll notice a single, more broadened bump (not always this obvious)… This is LACK of vertebra which has been replaced by cartilage… Knowing this raises questions for me about the extent of neuranagenesis that may take place… That is, to what extent are nervous tissues regenerated… I have no knowledge of this area, but I would think that because there is no “real” vertebral column the function of the new nerves do not perform in quite the same way… This is aside from the fact that the tail is probably less robust and not as fully developed in size… In my experience with geckos with regenerated tails, I have paid particularly close attention to any changes of use of the new tail… And I have notice less use for balance… With your index finger, lightly push up against the bottom of your original tailed gecko and it’ll often wrap its tail around your finger… Do this to one with a regen and it will often have little or no response…

I don't see how a male having a regenerated tail couldn't affect breeding... The tail plays an important role in gaining leverage to pull the female’s body towards the males (I have witnessed this use many many many times)... Just because 40-50% come in with regens, doesn't mean that tail regeneration doesn't have an influence in breeding... That stat means nothing in these terms… Dropping a tail for a gecko is a last ditch effort, a desperate answer to something its facing that it doesn’t like… whether it be a predator, stress, or reasons we don’t even know… Uroplatus have camo as a primary defense, they gape, and perhaps vocalize as a secondary, and even after fleeing comes dropping the tail… There are reasons that it doesn’t just drop its tail right off the bat, although in some cases they seem to (in these cases there is undoubtedly something else going on that we don’t understand)… The tail is obviously important for a number or reasons…

In addition, the rate of growth of an animal regenerating a tail is noticeably slower… When I consider factors for pairings, size and weight are at the top of my list… And that’s my goal, to bulk them up for breeding… Like I said, who really knows, these geckos still hold some mysteries…But I do know that having a regenerated tail will not HELP the breeding cause…
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Ben

bsmith251 Feb 24, 2005 01:07 AM

A female with a regen or who is currently regenerating a tail is a whole other can of worms from a standpoint as a perspective breeder... There are certainly reproduction costs for her…
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Ben

umop_apisdn Feb 24, 2005 10:59 AM

yea, good point...most generally speaking when it comes to animals and their growth and reproduction, energy is put aside for one or the other. as many of you probably already know, reproduction comes at great costs to the females, theres all the energy they put into making the egg so the young will be able to survive, not to mention great amounts of calcium going into the shell and whatnot. generally, a female animal in reproduction mode isn't going to have the spare energy and whatnot to go into growth, so basically when you get an animal thats regenerating its tail, either its energy is gonna be pushed away from reproduction and into regeneration, or maybe even energy will continue to go into reproduction then you get a halfway regenerated tail, which like ben said lowers the "fitness" or reproductive capacity of that individual.

im not always the best at explaining stuff, maybe ben said it better, so ill just leave with a sorta fuzzy pic i got of my pair of henkeli mating for the first time (i noticed). sorry, didnt wanna disturb em much so i got a better pic of the screen than the geckos themselves.

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