Reptile & Amphibian Forums

It is my personal belief that our hobby/profession has reached a point where NO ONE deserves to be excused for irresponsible behavior. True, Mr. Haast was a pioneer in bringing public awareness to these wonderful, venomous creatures, but in today's society ANYONE that engages in irresponsible activities involving their charges should be called out and put on front street...This is about policing ourselves people, and those ignorant rednecks that persist in showboating their charges free-style, keeping their cobras in cages with a brick on top of a screen lid, etc. need to be chastised and reprimanded for this irresponsible behavior. We're past the point of "Oh, I'm not so sure that's a good idea"...We're to the point where all it takes is one irresponsible act and WHAM! Guess what? New ban....so sorry so sad...turn over your animals, do not pass go and do not collect 200.00.

With all that in mind, I do not condone nor endorse ANYONE presenting a danger to this hobby that I hold so dear that could easily be avoided with a little less machismo and a lot more sense...That includes ANYONE...Haast included. People...be responsible with your animals...this hobby/profession depends on it!

There are those among us that would say "well, if they outlaw the keeping of my vens, I'll just keep them anyway"....That's your choice...But understand that by doing so you further damage whatever credibility the community still has, as well as subjecting yourself to fines, etc....Take it from someone that knows....It's not worth it.

Do as you choose but realize that EVERY time you interact with one of your vens, the future of your privilege to do so is possibly at risk...ACT ACCORDINGLY! What's more, every time you interact with one of your vens EVERYONE ELSE'S privilege to do so is possibly at risk as well....Just ask those hot keepers in North Dakota or Kentucky....they'll tell ya.

-AzAtrox

PS-I doubt very seriously that this message reached those that it needs to the most...I doubt very seriously that ANYTHING can reach those people.

More than a little curious as to what credentials you have that entitle you to include an icon such as Bill Haast alongside "ignorant rednecks" and "cages with a brick on top".

Bill Huseth

How did Bill Haast get on the burner so quickly and so strongly? I havnt seen his collection confiscated lately...I havnt seen any of his ads on kingsnake displaying an irresponsible message. In fact, I havnt seen Bill Haast doing much of anything in the public eye lately. Maybe I am missing something. Was he on Jay Leno showing off how he can be bitten by Najas recently? I am really lost on why he is being roasted on here. I don't think Bill Haasts behavior is having anything to do with the recent bans. All I really want to say is...for those of you who do not want to be active in promoting a positive image outside of kingsnake...just don't talk about your venomous snakes, don't get bitten, keep everything locked up (no bricks...show case locks are pretty cheap), let others do the work and your part of not harming anything further will be appreciated.

I would tend to agree...though controversial at times (not often though), he is a pioneer in the field and a PROFESSIONAL whose experience runs circles around some of the highly experienced folks here. I saw the bashing that Mitch took for the pic he showed with the hatchling leucistic cobra; he takes what he does very seriously and runs a real legit business. Although I personally wouldn't do something like that, and wouldn't condone it, Mitch has worked with far more cobras than I ever will in a lifetime (my modest group of five works just fine!) so I am in no position to pass judgement. I honestly don't think he did it for the machismo factor or the "oh wow, look how cool I am" factor. There was a recent post on the classifieds of some yahoo showing a picture of himself with bloodied hands advertising a venomoid speckled rattler; now that was pure garbage and thankfully, Kingsnake took it off as soon as it was reported. Mitch on the other hand, runs a successful business who knows what he is doing.

Unfortunately, we (the herp community) don't have a group like the NRA who has strong political ties and we only have ourselves to blame. We blew our chance probably 10 years ago to stregthen forces by forming a unified body that will aggressively protect our rights. Now, we are in a reactive mode and as each new state passes restrictive laws against owning venomous herps, it just spreads to the neighboring state (Indiana, Ohio soon enough, Tenn, KY, Michigan, just to name a few). The nails on the coffin are now hammered and there will probably no going back unless we can form a high powered group of people who have clout and political ties; not an easy task in such a small community (compared to the NRA). Unless you live in Texas or perhaps Florida, you will not be able to enjoy keeping venomous herps too much longer; what a shame.

>>How did Bill Haast get on the burner so quickly and so strongly? I havnt seen his collection confiscated lately...I havnt seen any of his ads on kingsnake displaying an irresponsible message. In fact, I havnt seen Bill Haast doing much of anything in the public eye lately. Maybe I am missing something. Was he on Jay Leno showing off how he can be bitten by Najas recently? I am really lost on why he is being roasted on here. I don't think Bill Haasts behavior is having anything to do with the recent bans. All I really want to say is...for those of you who do not want to be active in promoting a positive image outside of kingsnake...just don't talk about your venomous snakes, don't get bitten, keep everything locked up (no bricks...show case locks are pretty cheap), let others do the work and your part of not harming anything further will be appreciated.
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

You mention that we don't have a unified group like with political clout like the NRA. Anyone that wants to can develop that kind of stuff. I am sure there are plenty of people in our community that have political ties that would be willing to help fight this. This battle could also still be organized and fought on a legal front. We have the right to challenge these legislative laws as unconstitutional if we choose. Noone seems to want to organize even reactively. They all just complain on the forums. Well guess what, the people who are responsible for overturning these laws are not reading these forums. Maybe we should try organizing as a political entity and even a legal one. Maybe there are some lawyers who know enough about property and herp laws that would be able help organize the front.

Just my two cents
Jonathan Tragash
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Jon

I never intended my reply to go on a Haast bashing spree, just wondered why nobody ever says anything about his handling techniques, but are quick to flam everyone else who does what he does. I respect Mr. Haast ALOT, and am sorry I ever said a word.

You need more Naja Rob! I've had tons of them, and next to O. hannah, it just doesn't get any better.

I think we (myself even more so than most here) as a venomous community need to stop bickering amongst eachother & just enjoy/love what we got for now, maybe this way we can clear our heads, pull together, and help ourselves rather than hurt ourselves in the near future.
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Chad Bachman

It all started out when someone mentioned "Bill does this stuff and no one blasts him!" So I responded with "Well, Bill doesnt drag his animals out into the public and go LOOK AT ME!" Then it kinda got out of hand, and I continued with something like "legend or not, it's still a bad idea for him to do that regardless" and from there it sorta exploded.
I dont know much about Bill, but what I do know is the credentials he's aqcquired over the many millenia he's been doing his work, and that I dont see him going out of his way to post pictures of himself in the public arena. The public seems to go to him. He knows the risks he's taking, but he doesnt advertise.
I feel that in a public arena, complete common sense and responsibility needs to be shown. Posting for sale ads freehandling stuff is just a rotten idea. It's not necessary.
Im through with this whole flame war on this topic.
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Tom
TCJ Herps
"The more people I meet, the more I like my snakes"

I have been fortunate enough to have seen Bill at work-at the Serentarium-and later at his Punta Gorda facility.

While his freehand method of catching cobras is a bit risky (he has the scars to prove it) otherwise his maintenence protocols are very specific. In all, he runs a very professional establishment.

Punta Gorda is closed to the general public, but herp societies have been welcomed on numerous occasions.

Bill is a very personable and unpretentious person who is allways ready to share his knowlege. He also has been on call for snake bite victims and has used his blood as serum.

Considering the many contributions he has done to benefit not just our hobby-but also to educate the general public, to make remarks (like at the start of this thread)and include him in it is just plain WRONG.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Bill,

Never once did I refer to Haast as an "ignorant redneck" or that he kept his cobras in cages "with bricks on top"....My point in bringing him into this is to say that John Q. Public can look at his numerous photos (and bites) and deduce (rightly or wrongly depending on your particular perspective) that he is behaving in an irresponsible manner with his charges. John Q. Public will see no need to look further than that. Granted, the whole "self immunization" thing would seem a "bit off" to most "regular" people, but then again it appears that these very same "regular" people that are proposing bans and enacting legislation that affects us all.

My point is this...just because someone attains "semi-divine" status in our community does not absolve them of the responsibility to conduct themselves responsibly within that community. I do not know Haast, nor have I seen his collection, so with no direct knowledge of either, I would not make claims that I could not substantiate regarding his level of husbandry skills. My point with the "redneck" and "brick" references is that there are PLENTY of both types of people out there, keeping these animals and endangering this hobby for everyone...If you drew a direct inference between these people and Haast, no such inference was intended.

-AzAtrox

AzAtrox,
The reason I took offense to your post is that I've met Bill and watched him work, so I know the caliber of handler he is. If I misread the intent of your post, I apologize.

Bill

Bill...

No worries...I have never met Haast, so I cannot speak to his handling techniques or husbandry skills. I am not presumptuous enough to make claims regarding ones skills without having witnessed them.

-AzAtrox