Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I think this is where this goes....
What kind of legislation do you think is good for reptiles?
Would you....
....Support laws that say you must pass a species/family/other breakdown-specific test to own a reptile, similar to a driving test?
....Support laws that require people purchasing large monitors, gators, crocs and venomous herps to have their caging inspected?

What else?
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April
1.0 Mali Uromastyx- Embrodak,
0.1 Saharan Uromastyx- Scheherazade
2.2 Mountain Horned Dragon- Beren, Meche, Barahir and Tinuviel
3.0.5 Hermit Crabs- Violet, Polly, Jennifer, Trogdor, Hedwig, Penelope and Sinistra
1.1 Five lined Skink- Leela and Fry
1.0 Bettas-Nuala

>>Would you....
>>....Support laws that say you must pass a species/family/other breakdown-specific test to own a reptile, similar to a driving test?

Nope.

>>....Support laws that require people purchasing large monitors, gators, crocs and venomous herps to have their caging inspected?

Nope.

Not that they're terrible ideas, but there is no money to enact/enforce them.

>>What else?

I'd rather see a simple form for ANY animal sold, with the purchaser initialing next to paragraphs explaining caging requirements, food/water requirements, and ackowledging responsibility for the animal should it escape and cause harm. The forms could be kept on file at the pet store/breeder.

I think this would be a cost-effective way to at least let people know what they're getting into--letting the form do the talking on how difficult a species may be to keep, versus letting the clerk do the talking, hoping to clinch the deal.

Oh, and the forms would have to be OFF-LIMITS to the government UNLESS injury/death to a person occurs, and even then limited to forms pertaining to the species in question. There's no need for the government to maintain a database for future witch hunts (new legislation pushed through, then getting a knock on the door late at night, etc).
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Chris McMartin
www.mcmartinville.com
I'm Not a Herpetologist, but I Play One on the Internet

Chris, I would like to use the part of your reply dealing with the idea of a simple form when I speak with an Assemblyman on March 5th regarding the NYS anti-reptile law. I think it is a workable idea. However, I do have a question: who determines what is or is not proper caging requirements? Unlike the Marine Mammal Act, which does list sizes for enclosures for captive marine mammals, there's no such document for reptiles. While it may seem like common sense to those of us dealing with the animals, a politician will not have this experience.

Frank

However, I do have a question: who determines what is or is not proper caging requirements?

I am against delineating specific measurements for caging, simply because it's often arbitrarily determined (e.g. the CA regs which specify dimensions based on animal size--some herps need more, some need less). I'd rather the wording of the form be more vague ("you are purchasing a _________ (fill in the blank). It gets _____________ (this big), meaning it needs a small/medium/large/HUGE cage...". It's more of a CYA for the govt/pet store etc. "We TOLD him it would get 20 feet long, and he acknowledged it in writing."

I haven't thought the idea through to the details; it just popped into my head when reading the original post.

The bottom line is that it would be doing SOMETHING to 1. make people leery of herp keepers think they're a little safer and 2. ensure people "know what they're getting into" when their kid sees a cute baby Nile monitor for sale.
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Chris McMartin
www.mcmartinville.com
I'm Not a Herpetologist, but I Play One on the Internet

Hi Chris, and thanks for your reply. I was thinking along the same line. Signage stating how large the animal gets, along with a document signed by the consumer, is a far better idea than a ban. It may discourage some folks from buying certain animals, but that is not a bad thing.

My fear is that this issue will come up in my meeting. I can think of no way to come up with a definitive guide to cage sizes. How can I get a copy of the CA regs on this? If nothng else, I can explain (if the issue comes up) why this will not work.
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Frank M. Greco

>>My fear is that this issue will come up in my meeting. I can think of no way to come up with a definitive guide to cage sizes. How can I get a copy of the CA regs on this?

They're on the web, I think on the CA DFG site, under "captive amphibian and reptile propagation." Can't remember the URL off the top of my head.
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Chris McMartin
www.mcmartinville.com
I'm Not a Herpetologist, but I Play One on the Internet

Thanks Chris. I took at quick look at the CADFG site, but could not find it/. I'll take a closer look.
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Frank M. Greco

>>Thanks Chris. I took at quick look at the CADFG site, but could not find it/. I'll take a closer look.

www.dfg.ca.gov/licensing/pdffiles/fg1502.pdf

Page 4, near bottom of left-hand column. Quite arbitrary (33 inches must be a magic length for snakes!).
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Chris McMartin
www.mcmartinville.com
I'm Not a Herpetologist, but I Play One on the Internet

Maine actually sets cage size minimums for a wide variety of species. Their state department of wildlife (can't remember the exact name of the department) only allows certain animals to be sold in their state, but anyone wishing to keep and/or breed various species can get a permit to breed and own, just not sell.

Some state wildlife agencies don't have the power to oversee non-native wildlife due to the way the state laws overseeing thier agencies are worded.

Katrina

Katrina, thanks for the info. I found the page on the Maine DNR site.

Frank
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Frank M. Greco

where it is the state USDA sets cage size and how many mammals per cage in which can be real ridiculous for animals like rats and mice in a pet store facility. Some townships in Kansas had certain laws on the cage size and what kind of cage construction on reptiles in which was a attempt/leader to cause problems with the keeping of some reptiles. Then it was a permit system even if you had the correct caging later down the road. See where this might lead in other states or townships ?

>>>>Would you....
>>>>....Support laws that say you must pass a species/family/other breakdown-specific test to own a reptile, similar to a driving test?
>>
>>Nope.

I'm not trying to sound harsh, but there's no such requirement in order to have a HUMAN baby--we more strictly regulate whether someone can keep an iguana!
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Chris McMartin
www.mcmartinville.com
I'm Not a Herpetologist, but I Play One on the Internet

Support laws that say you must pass a species/family/other breakdown-specific test to own a reptile, similar to a driving test

Nope. Being in college I know that most of my studying for a test goes in for the test and might stay there a while but it's almost definately gone a month later. Why should this be any different? If someone really thinks that monitor looks cool they'll study to pass it and then forget it, just so they can get the monitor.

Support laws that require people purchasing large monitors, gators, crocs and venomous herps to have their caging inspected?

No way. Caging is too different and what one person might consider adequate another might consider seriously deficent. That all comes down to human judgement in the end which leads to differences and problems.

What else?

I like the idea of the form on file. The only bad thing could be if it was used against herp owners. I also think a policy of the store taking the animal back if the owner is unable to care for it properly without charge would be nice. Even if the store ended up dumping the animal on a rescue at least it would receive some care. I do think that there are many idiots out there who don't know what they're getting themselves into. Lots of them are my age (college kids) who want a cool pet. They give the few of us a bad rap. I think if there was a group that would define standards for reptile care (those people that actually have owned and kept the reptiles) then legislation would have something to go off of. If you can get a penalty for mistreating a 6' iguana many people might not be as willing to own one. Unfortunately most herpers can't agree or are not organized enough to put forth the effort to do this. Most of the time herpers are misunderstood and weird (I get that a lot at work showing off pictures) and I believe that is what causes problems with legislation - people (politicians) not being correctly informed as to what laws are in place and what the requirements for the animals are. Ok...I'm done now and I'll shut up.

~Katie
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JK Pets - Online Pet Supplies

2.3 Cornsnakes (Slink, Shadow, Suzie, Snickers, Selena)
0.1 Columbian Red Tail Boa (Baby)
0.3 Leopard Geckos (Cutie, Lily, and Miss Piggy)
0.1 Savannah Monitor (Sam)
0.2 Pac Man Frogs (Gordito and Spud)
0.1 Suriname Toad (Squishy & the Squishettes)
0.0.2 Giant Millipede (Mega & Mila)
0.0.1 Green Iguana (Iggy)
lots of snails and fish...

Being in college I know that most of my studying for a test goes in for the test and might stay there a while but it's almost definately gone a month later.

Thanks for boosting my confidence in our higher educational system.

Why should this be any different? If someone really thinks that monitor looks cool they'll study to pass it and then forget it, just so they can get the monitor.

If they're determined to get it, at the very least they'd be exposed to information they might not have otherwise received. Not everybody does their research before purchase.

>>I like the idea of the form on file. The only bad thing could be if it was used against herp owners.

Exactly. That's why my proposal was to keep the information from ever reaching the govt EXCEPT if a serious incident occurred. There would have to be a clause in the legislation to prohibit govt entities from obtaining copies of any files from the stores/dealers except in the previously-mentioned scenarios to ensure privacy.

I think if there was a group that would define standards for reptile care (those people that actually have owned and kept the reptiles) then legislation would have something to go off of.

PIJAC?

If you can get a penalty for mistreating a 6' iguana many people might not be as willing to own one.

You can, but I think such cases are rarely investigated/enforced because they're not as visible (many, if not most, herp keepers don't take their charges out for walks or keep them in their backyard, where neighbors could see signs of trouble and report them).

Most of the time herpers are misunderstood and weird (I get that a lot at work showing off pictures) and I believe that is what causes problems with legislation

Ever notice that if local media does a story on herp shows or clubs, they'll photograph/film the most tattooed/pierced person in attendance as representative of the entire hobby?
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Chris McMartin
www.mcmartinville.com
I'm Not a Herpetologist, but I Play One on the Internet

I absolutely support any law to ban the use of reptiles as carnival game prizes. THis is a death sentence.

I've always thought that a simple permit, say for $25, to buy or sell a reptile (or whatever species one wants to state here), would help to keep out the worst of the impulse purchases. Let's say I wanted to buy an iguana at a pet store. I would have to send off to my state agency for a permit, wait two weeks for a permit in the mail, and then show the permit to the pet store before they could sell me an iguana. Now I may or may not have to sign something that says I know what I'm getting into to get the permit, but either way, I still have to wait a couple of weeks to get my permit in the mail, and that will keep most people from buying something on impulse or strictly on the "cool" factor.

And, I'm willing to bet that more people will start looking up thier species in question while they wait for thier permit.

I think that an impulse purchase is one of the main causes of reptile neglect and abandonment, and our problems would be drastically reduced if we could stop impulse purchasing.

Katrina

The permit may slow down the number of idiots who buy these for 5-6 year olds. This is increasing.