Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Are there any kinds of tests out there that can define the specific genetics of a morph. For example, say I had a ball and I thought it was het for something but I wasn't sure for exactly what. Wouldn't it be nice to know the answer based on a simple blood test? Example, if you have a het albino, isn't it possible to merely determine what the genetic code is of that animal from a blood test and then apply that to other unidentified possible albino hets to know for sure? Just seems like if this were possible, the game would get a whole lot easier. What do you guys think?

Tim Savard

I've seen this question come up about once every other month and as far as I've heard there is still no genetics test for morphs. And quite honestly - no I would not want to know, takes all the fun out of it. Like shooting fish in a barrel, half the fun is not knowing what you've got until their heads are poping out of the eggs. And the easier it is, the more screwed up the industry would get. No I like things just the way they are.
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Tosha

8.10.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and currently un-named)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Dessert Tortoise (Pope)
7.9.5 Fish (1,2,3,4...)
0.0.1 Frog rescued from pool skimmer
0.0.2 Lizards rescued from pool skimmer

First someone would have to spend millions of dollars to chart the genome of ball pyhtons. Then the testing could take place. Given the big initial expense and the small market for BP genetic testing, it's about as likely in the near future as your next clutch of eggs producing 5 BP's with legs.

Genetisist did genomic fingerprinting on humans a couple of decades before the human genome project was even started. That is why there are tests for just about every single genetic disease in humans...and there have been for years and yeats.
It is not expensive, but rather, it is difficult.

Really all you need is genomic DNA samples from a large subset of a particular genenetic caused morphology and the relatively cheap equipment to do DNA "fingerprinting". With a little bit of grunt work, a finger print for the specific morphology can be created. Molecular biologists do this type of work on a routine basis, the only reason why there is no DNA test is the lack of a real market for testing. This wouldn't be something you could do in your house, but rather something that would be sent off to a lab, it would probably cost somewhere in the range of $150 to $500. Since the cause of some morphologies, such as albinism is relatively common and is found in many species, this test, I am sure could be much cheaper...but... How many people do you know that are going to pay that much to know if their $200 het albino is really a het? Answer...not many. Therefore, no test has been developed. BTW, I have my BS degree in Biochemistry and Molecular Biology and currently work with recombinant DNA technology on a daily basis....but still this is just MO.

I can see how a test for a specific recessive morph would quickly get obsolete as the morph hets became cheaper than the test.

However, can you see a market for a paternity test and would it be enough easier to develop that it could be cheaper? Of course if they don't find any new recessive morphs soon even that could get obsolete. I read once about all the paternity tests available for about every domestic animal including several species of fish so it seems to me that we ought to have a ball python paternity test too. It could be cheap insurance against sperm retention or even parthogenisis when selling recessive hets. It would also allow use of multiple males in cases where young males aren't proven to the point that you want to use them exclusively.

You should be able to do a paternity test assuming the genetics of balls vary enough to tell the difference between one animal and another. These aren't very expensive, but I'm not sure if anyone has developed one for reptiles. Also you could see a problem like when you want to identify hets out of a 66% het pool for example. In that case a paternity test wouldn't help, because they all came from the same parents. Also for a paternity test you need to compare the individuals you beleive are the father (or mother) to the offspring...so if you have someone trying to rip you off, if they didn't provide the actual father, the results would come back inconclusive.

really the only way to be sure is to buy visual morphs or to buy hets from a reputable breeder that has a genetics garantee.

I realize a paternity test wouldn't help for identifying which possible hets are hets but I was hoping that it would be much easier to develop with a wider market and less quickly dated than a test for a specific morph gene.

"really the only way to be sure is to buy visual morphs or to buy hets from a reputable breeder that has a genetics garantee."

I was thinking that a paternity test would even be useful for the reputable breeders. I've heard of at least one case of a very reputable breeder selling hets that apparently where not het for what they where supposed to be due to some sort of mix up. I've also heard a very reliable case of sperm retention from the male used the year before. I don't know how common these mix-ups are (due to sperm retention, parthogenisis, or otherwise) but it seems to me that a cheap paternity test would be a good guarantee for the honest seller as well as their customer. The honest seller doesn’t want to risk their reputation misrepresenting hets but with sperm retention and the possibility of parthogenisis or simple pairing mix-ups they might welcome a final check before sale.

It could also be a useful tool for breeders who want to use more than one male, perhaps hoping to get offspring of more than one male with only one female. Or maybe just because they don't trust the primary male (young) to get the job done and don't want to risk wasting a female's year by not using a backup male.

I also think there could be a security angle to a paternity test. A breeder could file sheds of all their snakes’ offsite. The could then have a warning to this effect on their website and on their premises. If someone where to steal their collection not only could they not sell the original animals (because the current technology of photo identification makes this a discovery risk) they couldn’t even sell their offspring without risking later paternity tests exposing their stolen parents. It’s not a perfect system because you would have to identify suspected offspring and then obtain samples but looking back at say the theft of Bob Clark’s albinos back when they where still very rare it might have helped catch the thief quicker. I believe eggs and perhaps gravid females were even stolen and presumably sold quickly after hatching due to the assurance that no photo id’s existed. The thief was known to have purchased some albino blood so could have used this as a cover for his sales that couldn’t have been disproven short of a paternity test.

Paternity tests just sound like a useful and realistic tool that I hope will be available soon.

...but they are not 100% accurate, even for humans. So the likelihood of anyone being prosecuted based on paternity tests in ball pythons is pretty small...and with no established legal cases...well, it would be tricky

However, you do bring up good points about how a breeder could use a paternity test. The technology used for a paternity test is no different from one species to another. Some vets offer this service for other domestic animals like horses and dogs (I don't know any off hand, but I do know that some do it). I would think that if you were able to provide a good tissue sample (sperm plugs or mouth swab or something similar) from two snakes in question, they should be able to do it. Like tomorrow, if you wanted. In fact, several places provide the exact same service for dogs, people, and other animals all in the same facility. Currently it cost around $150 for a dog paternity test and about $300 for a high end test.

Still kind of expensive, huh? But, I am pretty sure it would work for ball pythons, just as well as it does for other animals. I'll email one of the companies and find out...if I get any response I'll let you know...