Reptile & Amphibian Forums

My Cal King hatchling had been fed only frozen-thawed food at Petco (poor thing). At home, now that I'm feeding live, he's had initial problems with spotty diarrhea, and regurgitation of partially digested prey.

Why? Because when Petco devidated from his natural pattern of hunting & stalking, turning him into a scavanger of dead flesh, they forgot that friendly bacteria were not being placed into his system - like they would in the wild.

All reptiles require friendly bacteria in their gut to help digest food. Without it, they only get part of the nutrition. I'm having to gradually get mine used to proper intestinal flora and food nutrition since they were denied from his birth.

Keep this in mind every time you reach for convenience. Frozen-thawed food is about as nutritious as microwaved food. Only part of the nutrients remain. Best to feed live - with the friendly bacteria included as part of the natural process.

Besides, it's the one thing we can let them do that they do in the wild. They love to stalk & constrict, let them!!

First of all, if your snake is regurgitating meals on a regular basis, there is something wrong, maybe the temperatures of the enclosure, or the amount of food it gets, it has nothing to do with whether the prey was f/t or live.

Why? Because when Petco devidated from his natural pattern of hunting & stalking, turning him into a scavanger of dead flesh, they forgot that friendly bacteria were not being placed into his system - like they would in the wild.

PetCo is one of the worst places for a snake to be anyways, I'd never buy an overpriced, unhealthy snake from them(which they pretty much all are). One of the good things about getting a captive born snake over a wild caught snake, is that the captive born snake is less likely to have parasites and harmful bacteria(which for some reason you want your snake to be infested with bacteria).

Mice are mice, when live mice get frozen it's not like something disapears from the mouse's body(other than blood circulation and heartbeats lol), it's the same thing still.

Besides, it's the one thing we can let them do that they do in the wild. They love to stalk & constrict, let them!!

If you want to feed it how it would eat in the wild, why aren't you just feeding the king other snakes?? What do you think a cali king hatchling comes across more in the wild, snakes, or newborn mice? Snakes. So why aren't you feeding the snake what it would naturally eat, and just throw in all of those parasites and bacteria anyways that you want the snake to have.

Mike
Michael's Place

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Ameron,
I have fed frozen thawed for a long while now. I have no regurgers, no unhealthy snakes and no spotty diarreha. Actually, I think my snakes are in supreme condition.
If your snake is regurging on a regular basis. Check the temps and/or try smaller food items. If the temps and food size items are not the problems then you should check for parasitic activity.
Snakes will and do thrive on frozen thawed mice. And I would never buy them from Petco anyway. Try Big Cheese Rodent Factory or Rodentpro if you want to save some money and save your snake(s).
John Lassiter

They survived in the wild for millions of years eating live prey. They are designed to, despite the efforts of largely ignorant people who want to change things - for convenience.

Besides, if my Kingsnake is ever seriously hurt by a mouse, I'll replace it with one that can show rodents who is boss!

However, you may wish to save snakes from captivity & a frozen-thawed diet with less nutrients. That is a major concern, especially long-term.

Look around you at other Americans and their eating habits. Ever see such an unhealthy people? 66% are overweight, 33% seriously. 33% of all women can no longer give birth naturally without drugs & surgery due to THIER diet & lifestyle. Not the crowd to give me health & nutrition advice.

I'm just very glad I'm not your king snake...one of my babies insists on trying to eat tail first...so I take legs off and watch to be sure it goes down right and nothing happens to him...Helane

Mine have eaten tail first about a quarter of the time, no problems yet.

Understand this is not an attack on you…you just need to see the bigger picture here…something is wrong with your snake or your husbandry ..not f/t rodents.

“They survived in the wild for millions of years eating live prey.”

They are not in the wild. They are in your house, a captive environment that is not natural anyway.

“Besides, if my Kingsnake is ever seriously hurt by a mouse, I'll replace it with one that can show rodents who is boss!”

A very mature and responsible statement……..not.

“However, you may wish to save snakes from captivity & a frozen-thawed diet with less nutrients. That is a major concern, especially long-term.”

I would very much like to see your research…..by the way where did these nutrients mysteriously disappear to while being warmed in water….What lab did the chemical break down of a f/t vs. live prey item for you.

“Look around you at other Americans and their eating habits. Ever see such an unhealthy people? 66% are overweight, 33% seriously. 33% of all women can no longer give birth naturally without drugs & surgery due to THIER diet & lifestyle. Not the crowd to give me health & nutrition advice.”

What in the world does that have to do with the price of tea in China……or snakes?

I think that unfortunately your Petco snake has other underling problems that you refuse to except or explore and for some wild reason you have found some convenient thing to blame it on. Take you snake to the vet and find out why it has spotty diarrhea, and regurgitates. May be it is because the live prey you are feeding have live parasites in them that are now in your snake. That or the temps or humidity is off. Or not enough hiding spots…but not f/t.

See the good thing f/t is good for besides being nutritious, safe and healthy for your snake is that all the parasites are killed when frozen.

And While I am here I might as well tell you that yes I have seen a snake injured while feeding live prey and if do a little searching around on the internet you will find plenty of pictures of snakes with missing tongues, eyes and whole chunks of flesh missing because of LIVE PREY.

Also the book “What's Wrong With My Snake? A User-Friendly Home Medical Reference Manual” (The Herpetocultural Library) by John Rossi, Roxanne Rossi has lots of pictures of INJURED and DEAD SNAKES killed by LIVE PREY.

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Jeff
0.1 Wife (Homo sapiens sapiens): Kim
2.0 Hog Island Boas, Bob Sears Line (Boa Constrictor imperator): Ham-let and BLT
0.1 Hog Island Boa, Schuett Line (Boa Constrictor imperator): Petunia
1.1 Smooth-Scaled Sand Boas (Eryx johnii johnii): Xerxes, and Sa'rai
1.0 Kenyan Sand Boa (Eryx colubrinus loveridgei): Solomon
0.2 Kenyan Sand Boas, 100% het anery (Eryx colubrinus loveridgei): Sheba, Jasmine
0.0.1 Florida Kingsnake (Lampropeltis getula floridana): Seminole
0.1 Doberman (Canis familiaris): Princess Grace
1.0 Pitbull Mix (Canis familiaris): Popcorn
1.0 Rough Collie (Canis familiaris): Dante
---------------------------------------------
“It’s not bragging if you can prove it”

Understand this is not an attack on you(good statement, there is no need to make fun of someone who obviously did not get enough love as a child, and needs to make obsurd comments about the snakes that he/she obviously knows nothing about).

I think that unfortunately your Petco snake has other underling problems(yeah, like it, it came from PetCo lol).

Mike
Michael's Place

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You are confusing 2 issues:

1. Live feeding.
2. My recent snake's health issue.

You are also wrong about one other thing. My local Petco is the best pet store I've ever seen! They have exceptional conditions and AMAZING specimens. Twice recently I've seen better animals and prices than I could get at various Internet sites. I shopped around.

Petco's conditions are better than those of most reptile breeders. Only one breeder in Florida even comes close in his husbandry. And if you need to give a reptile back that you once bought there? They take it back for free and find a new home for it.

You are the man making comments about things of which you have no knowledge. (When were you last in Portland on Hayden Meadows Drive, that you are qualified to speculate on my local pet store? Comments?)

I have bought more than a few snakes from my local PETCO and had to pay much more than just their high prices(MITES). I get much better deals and quality from herpetoculturists from all over the 48 that ship overnite to my door. Try it you'll like it! BTW how many snakes are in your collection?

here's my MBK w/splendida influence

Thats a nice lookin snake, how do you know it has Splendida influence? If it shows any yellow or pattern please post another pic. Thanks Tom Stevens

Does that make it a hybrid????

don't you see the pin-dots on his dorsum?

didn't notice til you pointed it out...........

here's another view of the same snake.

My male MBK has some white near his belley, not much bt it's there and it does carry over to the babies he produces. No specks at all on his back though. When he is laying in substrate you cant see anything but black. He is a great breeder, great pet too, very nice snake to handle. Thanks for posting Tom Stevens

I really don't know the background of my MBK, just pondering where those pin-dots come from, and thank you,
here's my OTHER mbk "BLACKJACK"

That is real nice, I love the glossy shine. My female is huge, over 4 foot and can eat medium rats. I mostly feed her large mice but when she slims down after laying I give her a few rats and she plumps back up fast. I hope my MBKs produce first for me this year. Tom Stevens

thanks Tom, here's my 01' 1.0 again, i toss him a live one every once in awhile but it spoils him and then he don't like his ft's so much. Good luck this hatching season.

That is a great pic of a great snake! You can clearly see it in that pic. I think the first pic didn't show the angle as well
Todd

Thanks Todd, do you have any MBK's?

Yeah, I got 0.0.2 '03's and I love 'em. Best tempers and always hungry. My camera sucks but....

Do we need our captive pets to be scarred up when it is not neccesary. No.....,if you chose to feed live that's fine with the rest of us. But do not influence newbies into thinking there's no downside to feeding live, that is not right. Tom Stevens

.

I feed fresh killed but may be switching to f/t soon....how about halfsies, John?
Todd

I recognize you as one of the Veteran posters, I appreciate your time.

I'm not the only one second thinking the live feeding issue. My local pet store owner feels that same way. She has raised many animals, for many years, and feels that live feeding is a distinctly natural advantage for nutrition reasons.

Makes sense. So is breast feeding. And eating raw, live vegetables & fruits for us. Nothing frozen nor cooked is as nutritious as live food.

My feeling is that frozen-thawed not only is less nutritious, we rob our animals of natural behavior that is unnecessary. They are predators; I feel that they should remain as Predators, not Scavangers. We've already bred enough hybrid mutants to satisfy our color desires. (Selective breeding always comes with a trade-off; ask any royal family.)

I'm also astonished when other Posters express worry that their snake may get hurt by a mouse. I'm surprised that these folks suffocating on Paranoia even dare to leave their homes!

(Taking prescription drugs, or driving a motor vehicle, are the 2 most dangerous things they can do each week. Have they stopped taking pills - or stopped driving? WHY TAKE THE RISK, AMERON??? AHHH! SOMEBODY HELP ME!!!)

Also, when they say "I'm glad that I'm not your snake", and then describe how they allow their snake to swallow prey backwards and then cut off prey legs to facilitate the backwards swallow, that seems MORE than morbid to me. When they get to the point that they are cutting up or "thumping" tiny mice against hard objects, they are not any longer in a position to council me on etiquette nor morailty!

Thanks for your words of logic & reason. I'll look forward to your posts again.

Don Jacobson
Vancouver, WA

“They are predators; I feel that they should remain as Predators, not Scavangers. “

Its funny that you would say that because from the very beginning of this post I remembered seeing a show on Animal Plant, I want to say that it was Jeff Corwin, but anyway they were doing research on Western Diamondbacks. It was night; they found a Diamondback and placed a prekilled rat in front of the snake. Well with the researchers watching the snake the snake would not move. So they left the area and left the camera running. The researchers came back later, no snake, no rat. Watched the tape and low and behold the wild Diamondback ate the prekilled rat.

Just goes to show that Herping is still a relatively new hobby and new things are learned everyday. Even about common snakes held in captivity. Who is to say they don’t sometimes scavenge. The wild Diamondback did. A Water Moccasin will too. Who knows?
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Jeff
0.1 Wife (Homo sapiens sapiens): Kim
2.0 Hog Island Boas, Bob Sears Line (Boa Constrictor imperator): Ham-let and BLT
0.1 Hog Island Boa, Schuett Line (Boa Constrictor imperator): Petunia
1.1 Smooth-Scaled Sand Boas (Eryx johnii johnii): Xerxes, and Sa'rai
1.0 Kenyan Sand Boa (Eryx colubrinus loveridgei): Solomon
0.2 Kenyan Sand Boas, 100% het anery (Eryx colubrinus loveridgei): Sheba, Jasmine
0.0.1 Florida Kingsnake (Lampropeltis getula floridana): Seminole
0.1 Doberman (Canis familiaris): Princess Grace
1.0 Pitbull Mix (Canis familiaris): Popcorn
1.0 Rough Collie (Canis familiaris): Dante
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“It’s not bragging if you can prove it”

I believe that most snakes in the wild scavenge when the opportunity arises. I have seen it myself with hognoses and garters and ribbons on numerous occasions, and also have seen a coral snake eating a fresh road killed neonate southern plains rat snake, so I would assume a king would but have not seen it myself......yet. I agree that they are powerful and awesome killers but tend to see them as adapting to "our" environment, such as finding them under the trash along our highways. I "thump" my snakes "prey" so as to discourage a dead snake. About half of my constrictors don't even constrict anymore...adapting.
Todd
P.s. about 2/3's of my collection are w.c. animals....to each his own.

For people who buy their live mice every week in pet shops. When you come home with that mouse, there is a chance that you have brought home a hitchhiker. It only takes one pregnant female reptile mite, to infect your whole colony of snakes. These can be picked up from the counter, money , rubbing against something,from an employee who was working on the infested snake cages, then helps you, or just a mite that has strayed into the mouse cages by accident. Also to consider with live mice is internal parasites, that can be transmitted from mammal to reptile ( I beleive these are few and far between, but there all the same). I get nervouse just buying dog food for my dog in these places. So,frozen thawed is the only way we go. Thanks, CHRIS' COLUBRIDS

I was also warned from a very smart herper years ago about the things you just mentioned and even cautioned where to buy my substrate from. You know I have a stubborn feeder who insists on live more often than not. I hate when I forget to bring my own box because they just grab any old dirty box from the back and throw the mice in it..........who knows what was in it first and how long it had been laying there. You simply can not be too careful. Tom Stevens

Substrate is another thing to be careful of. There are different types of mites. Not all are harmful to snakes. There are different types of wood mites that can come with substrate. I don't beleive these are harmful to reptiles. Although I am not an expert. But they can throw a scare into you, as one mite looks like another mite to me. My advise to anyone who buys anything at a pet shop is to freeze it for a day or two if possible to kill any bugs. thanks, chris........ps. photo of eastern blackneck garter eating frozen thawed.

lol nice pic, I guess s/he didn't care how the mouse went down, as long as it went down.

Mike
Michael's Place

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Michael's Place has updated better caresheets
Helmz777@aol.com
www.freewebs.com/mikesnake

Nice pic!

Kerby...

Kerby, Thanks, Chris Bodner

Very excellant pic and great looking snake! I want one! Very cool.
Todd
P.s. Definitely going to switch to f/t now. I'm a believer....always wondered where the damned mites were coming from! Thanks Tom and all.

LOSING an EYE to a LIVE RODENT! anyone with any amount of snake keeping experience should know that. I mostly do FT and fresh-killed tho sometimes my psycho types get live.

It is possible for your snake to get sick from f/t prey. especially if you buy from retail locations... I use to buy f/t from petco and petland discount (*long time ago)... and by the time I got home they'd be completely thawed, I never thought much of it I'd just put them back in the freezer, bad bad bad idea, once any thing thaws bacteria attacks it... but I live isn't the best way to go,live mice can harm your snake if s/he isn't quick/precise. I have a pair of hypo Hondurans that have had a rough start because they would only take live prey, I got they to take pre-killed, and I hope to eventually switch them to f/t,[I had breeding mice, the stink, and I live in an apartment so I have to clean them out 2-3 times a week (eeeewwww)]

Any way which ever way you choose to feed you cali is up to you, personally I'd feed um all f/t if they'd take um

~ZF

Live

Pre-killed

F/T

All 3 Yield Healthy Snakes.

The mouse in the first pic looks like it's having so much fun it has to scream lol.

Mike
Michael's Place

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Michael's Place has updated better caresheets
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N/p

are they like fungi (fun guy)?

Friendly bacteria in a jar, powder form. Some people swear by it. Tom Stevens

I used raise a couple of boas (4 actually) a while back. I fed two of them only f/t and the other two live or f/k. The ones that ate f/t were pretty docile and would only halfheartedly coil around their prey. No need to describe what the other two did. I did this because at the time, I really didn't have much experience with them but was curious to find out if there was really a difference. At about 3-3.5 feet, the ones that were eating f/t, had a softer feel about them. The ones that were taking live and f/k were noticeable more muscular. I don't think their health was compromised but there was a distinct difference. I may try this again this year but with a few different colubrids, but I'll take better notes.

Scott

I can save you some time and trouble. None of my colubrids have a "softer" or more relaxed feel to them. My adults are enormous, muscular and impressive to say the least. They have been fed mostly frozen thawed all their lives except for the occasional pre killed mouse.
Frozen mice are more economical and you will get the same results from them as live or pre killed or what ever else you feed your snake.
I really don't see where all these rumors are coming from. Ask any breeder that has extensive knowledge or experience and he will tell you that frozen thawed is the way to go, period!
Years and years of breeding and keeping successfully with frozen thawed mice should answer anyone's questions as to if it is bad or not.
Really there is nothing wrong with a prekilled mouse either but people should not say that feeding frozen thawed is bad or worse for a snake. That is pure nonsense and speculation!!
John Lassiter

I will agree with you on the frozen rodents. That is definitely the way to go. I use them whenever I can but also use alot of prekill, mostly because I have my own breeding colony of mice and rats. It could very well have been just the individuals themselves also. I did that back in the later 80's and really have mulled that thought over in the back of head since. Again, I was fairly new the hobby at the time and was getting info from different people at the time. It was after a conversation with Steve Hammack, that he pretty much disspelled any thoughts about the subject and therefore I dropped the experiment at the time. Again, I only did this to the few that I had, but have to this day asked people if they was really any difference at all. Honestly, I don't think there is, but the curiousty factor lingers from time to time. After reading my original post, it was not the intent to state that frozen was bad in any way. I should've worded it somewhat differently. Trust me, frozen or prekill is the only way to go. As for the animals in question back then, they were pretty much the same size and were outstanding specimans and all of them were over 10 years old when I got rid of them (got married). Have since gotten back into the hobby several years ago. Thank you for the info you have provided also. After reading your post, I think I just need to let it go.......... LOL Thanks once again

Scott

Scott, (Guero)
There is nothing wrong with using pre killed. I did not mean to deter you from any experiment you wanted just as long as a captive snake is unharmed. You could easily feed some frozen thawed and the others prekilled/knocked out/stunned or euthanized mice.
You may have better luck with one or the other but remember snakes are individual and large numbers of snakes would be needed to make a hypothesis an actual theory.
I have over 80 colubrids now and would not do it any other way than the way I am doing it now. All of my snakes are healthy as can be, but some are a little heavier than they should be, but are still strong, impressive specimens.

Ameron should just keep feeding live mice but should realize it is best for the well being of the snake to pre-kill them before hand.....
Peace.
John Lassiter

Well, it was more like self indulged curiousty. I also have a large amount of colubrids, around 60 adults and 40 or so sub-adults to juvies. I really don't have time to do it and if I really wanted it done, would have already done it. Besides, you would need a large number of individuals and meticulous notes. Between the snakes and the rodents, it can be some work. It's good to get feedback for others. If Ameron wants to feed live, power to him. A friend of mine just brought me a speckled king (adult female) who had bite from a small rat. It had an infection and then some. I realize most of this is due to husbandry, but I'm like you, why even take the risk. Yes, some snakes only want live and I have no problem with that. It's just so much easier.

>Why? Because when Petco deviated from his natural pattern of >hunting & stalking, turning him into a scavanger of dead flesh, >they forgot that friendly bacteria were not being placed into >his system - like they would in the wild.

I'd have to disagree with your conclusion. Any healthy animal will have a healthy balance of "friendly" bacteria. Whether the prey item was live or F/T shouldn't effect this load. Given he's having spotty diarrhea and regurging, I'd say he has some sort of infection, and suggest taking him to a vet for a fecal. As many have stated here, I always switch mine over to F/T ASAP, and have never had problems with regurges after switching. I find it hard to argue against years of proven success many breeders have in feeding only F/T.
Feeding too soon after a regurge will only make matters worse by not allowing any "friendly" bacteria lost while regurging to replace itself. I'd also advise adding some unflavored pedialyte to his water to help replenish any lost minerals.
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Ace

A much longer track record of success than any breeder with a lifespan of maybe 80 years. Remember? I've never yet seen a snake hurt by any prey, and I've fed live for years.

Every time I hear the pathetic excuse "The snake may lose an eye!", I'm reminded that 105,000 Americans die every year from prescription drugs. Do they stop taking prescriptions drugs due to the risk?

Kids may drown in pools. Do they stop swimming??

Every year 40,000 Americans die in car crashes. Do they stop driving?

Risk surrounds everything worth having. Best to create plans which manager risk sensibly rather than trying (unsuccessfully) to elude risk.

Ameron..............WHY EVEN TAKE THE RISK!!!!!!!!!
Kill the mouse first, knock it out or whatever.
It is not BETTER to feed live mice just as it is not BETTER to feed thawed mice. IT is just safer and more economic to feed frozen thawed.
I take it you don't have very many snakes........or you would know how economical it is.
Why even have a snake in captivity if you think it is a wild snake??? Once you take it from the wild it is a wild caught snake not a wild snake...........
Do it your way and we shall do it ours...........Who really cares!!! Your snakes are not mine............Poor things....
John Lassiter

It will help us all that do not feel like wasting anymore time dealing with your lack of knowledge and stupidity towards snakes.

Mike
Michael's Place

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Michael's Place has updated better caresheets
Helmz777@aol.com
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>Best to create plans which manager risk sensibly rather than >trying (unsuccessfully) to elude risk

Seems to me this is exactly what feeding F/T does do?
It would also seem you missed my point. Whether live or F/T is "better" is irrelevent in this case. Having a snake regurge AND have diarrhea (assuming your temps are correct) tells me your snake most likely has some type of intestinal/parasitic infection, rather than having anything to do with whether you fed it live or F/T.
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Ace

Let's just hope that the persons advising me to "get off the drugs" are not late in taking their daily dose of Premarin, Viagra, Vioxx, Vicodin, [and so on...]

Let's get something straight.
Yes, some very good things come with risk, such as driving or swimming.
But there are different kinds of risk.

There's self imposed risk such as driving a car or hang gliding. Self imposed risk is what we humans consciously choose for ourselves.

Then there's necessary risk that we choose for another, such as driving your child to school in the back of your car. Sure, cars crash, but the risk is minimal and worth it for their education. And giving your kids swimming lessons exposes them to a swimming pool, but the knowledge of how to swim then protects them if they fall out of a rowboat or something.

And then there's unnessary and irresponsible risk imposed on one you are ethically obligated to protect. Such as taking your dog hang gliding or having your little kid swim off a beach known for riptides.

Clearly there is debate on whether feeding a snake live prey falls into the second or third category. I personally think it falls into the third. But that is a matter of perception.

But if you consider snake safety the same as driving a car, you are shooting bull.

>>A much longer track record of success than any breeder with a lifespan of maybe 80 years. Remember? I've never yet seen a snake hurt by any prey, and I've fed live for years.

Oh, but I've seen the scars left, and I've heard (reliable sources) of snakes killed instantly by their prey turning. Shall we lock our dogs in the same room as a deer to give them fresh meat and the thrill of the hunt?
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0.2 chickens (Falcon & Condor)
0.2 dog mutts (half ownership, only mine when they misbehave, Lucy & Amy)
0.1 Halflinger horse (Crissy)
0.0 Arizona Mountain Kingsnake (coming soon)
1.1 parents
Still searching for 1.0 WC human

I feed live and have been for around 16 years. I feed approx: 5,000 times a year (not counting pinkies to babiy snakes). I have fed f/t a few times out of necessity but 99% of the time I feed live. No, I don't throw a live mouse in the cage and leave them unattended. I wack the mouse as I put it into the snake's cage. I have never had a "biting" accident in 16 years. I feed mostly mice products and some of my snakes feed on small rats as well. I only have colubrids, no large exotics.

I have had a lot of people who buy snakes from me ask if I power-feed and my response is NO. They ask why are my baby/yearling snakes bigger than others? I feed once a week and with mostly one item a week. But I do feed live. I will feed females more during certain times of the year (after coming out of brumation & after egg laying). I do not feed large items to snakes. I feed them items that can go down easily.

I also believe that we feed our captive-bred snakes WAY TOO MUCH as compared to wild snakes. "Skinny" wild snakes do great in their environment! LOL

Now, I don't have official stats on frozen items, but here are some facts:

Frozen-thawed rodents ARE NOT as fresh as live. Do they loose nutrition, YES. Is that loss significant??? I do not know. I hunt and fish a lot. Fresh fish (straight into the skillet taste WAY BETTER than frozen-thawed). Same for meat. A fresh slice of venison off a hanging deer taste WAY BETTER than one I take out of the freezer. Go to your butcher ( a real butcher, not a grocery store meat guy) and ask.............

Also, once an animal is dead (ie, mouse). It starts to decay IMMEDIATELY. For example: Your rodent supplier will put down lots of rodents at one time. Once THAT mouse is dead it starts to decay. How long from the time it died until it gets into the freezer????? How long do you think it takes for a mouse to freeze? If you freeze a mouse by itself, not in a bag, about 8-10 hours. If you freeze a bag full of mice together, about 24 hours, with the ones in the middle - about 48 hours. In the meantime, that mouse is decaying. Some of your frozen mice that you bought have beed dead for 48 hours before frozen. Then, once you get these frozen mice from your supplier, you put them into your freezer. You take one out to thaw, guess what starts to happen then - yes, the decaying process starts up again (actually with our freezers, it never stops, just slows down). Then depending upon how long you let that mouse thaw before feeding, then how long until the snake eats that item, then how many posts have you seen about people asking if they can re-freeze an uneaten mouse, to take it out again and start the process over again?

Once an item is put into the freezer it starts to loose moisture, THAT IS A FACT. All the liquids in a mouse start to dissipate when frozen. The colder the freezer temps the quicker the dissemination of moisture from your rodent. You can see this on areas of the mouse that have less circulation and protection (feet & nose & tail). Obviously pinkies have less insulation than hairy mice and you can see this affect there as well. This is the technique used in Freeze-dry taxidermy (sucking out all of the moisture). Those freezers are set colder than your common household freezer, but it shows how it works. For example in Freeze-dry taxidermy, a squirrel that weighs 2 lbs will be put into the freezeer and weighed every day. The weight will drastically drop right away and will level out about after 7- 10 days. Over 50%! At that time, 99.9% of the moisture (all fluids) IS GONE from the animal. Moisture in the veins, moisture in the bones, & moisture in the meat - GONE! This process is the SAME THING THAT IS HAPPENING TO YOUR FROZEN RODENTS - FACT. Just not in 7-10 days.

I raise my own rodents, about 2,000 mice and rats/month. I feed live because that is my choice. My live rodents are fresher than frozen-thawed, THAT IS A FACT! Is it enough to make a difference.......... your choice.......... It may not make a difference.

Feeding live DOES NOT CAUSE HARM to your snake if you feed responsibly. (Sounds like a commercial LOL)

I have no gripe with people that feed f/t, I do have a gripe with people who put down feeding live.

Mice, it's whats for dinner!

Kerby...

Kerby,
I see nothing wrong with feeding live if, like you said, feed responsibly. If I knock a live mouse over the head before I put it in with the snake I call it pre killed....................
Neither way is better. I see your point in freshness, but none of my snakes are lacking in nutrients I can tell you that.....
Great post by the way.....Glad you are adamant about it....
I think Ameron is throwing live mice in with his snakes all the time. A swift bash in on the head is needed...for the mice not Ameron. LOL!!!!!
John Lassiter

I tried a f/t mouse once, made me loose 5 lbs. Live is better LOL

Kerby...

Too funny Kerby.....

.

You speak so eloquently on behalf of the folk who mock me for my live feeding beliefs. (One person previously replied with simply: "Shut up about live feeding!"

You all mention alleged concerns for the mice's "safety", and yet you folk go on to speak about maiming and cutting up your mice prey - so that the entire process can be more civilized?

I'm reminded of the Aztecs who refused to take part in the military expeditions to procure human sacrifices for their ruling priests. One temple dedication alone required 40,000 human sacrifices; it took 4 days to "thump" all the bodies. Some were skinned alive.

While a few, brave Aztecs cried out about human rights, injustice and possible future retribution, (the Spanish would deliver this - piping hot & fresh) the majority of Aztecs just stood around and screamed:

"Support our troops!" "Support our troops!"
(Support our ideology of intolerance for other beliefs!)

The last creature to discover water would be the fish.
Precisely because he is always immersed in it.

Anonymous

So let's just think of another topic to discuss. Speaking for myself I do not like to see the mice suffer anymore than I like to see a snake get bit. I do not like stunning or killing the mice myself either. Therefor frozen appeals to me. I also know[or thought I knew]that most of the larger rodent suppliers flash freeze the rodents, I can not be specific but I thought they were frozen at an incredible rate and not simply put into a freezer. I was even more sympathetic to the mice when I was a kid, it really bothered me to see one suffer from a snake who simply was not an efficient killer. Sometimes a mouse would be constricted in an area that did nothing more than restrain it, or I have also seen snakes so eager to devour thier prey the mouse had rebounded back into life while halfway down the snakes throat only to be spat out and constricted again. Seeing my snakes all appear to thrive on frozen thawed I have no reason to worry they're missing out on some nutrients. Not too mention some of my snakes have such a strong feeding response they go nuts and constrict dead prey and get a little excercize for lack of a better word. I also occasioanlly do the Python thing where when feeding from tongs you simply do not let go for a minute and shake it around a bit to really get your snake in kill mode, thus mimicing a more natural setting. I had a large Pine receive a puncture wound from a rat that bled way too much for me to ever willingly chance that happening again. You have to admit Ameron, the way you began this post was somewhat confrontational as if you wanted to argue and that's what this whole thread is. Some of us feed live and others don't. Both sides have made points, it's food for thought so let's move on and discuss something else Tom Stevens

I feed all my snakes F/T. I have no room to breed my own mice. Do you think snakes raised on F/T and later switched to live will become healthier to any degree? I may start breeding mice in the future, but there's no way I can afford to feed everything live now. Tom Stevens

**Do you think snakes raised on F/T and later switched to live will become healthier to any degree?**

Well, let's see; we can't even figure out what is healthy for humans LOL. Every year, the "healthy" standards change. More carbs, less carbs, damn! I love fried potatoes with onions! Who's counting carbs???? On humans we can look at people and make a determination if they are healthy (waist line, big a$$ butts, etc..) and then there are a lot of things we cannot see: kidney damage, high blood pressure, liver damage, etc.. So, if a person was eating Big Macs (f/t) all his life and then switched to live (right off the hoof), would they become healthier? I would say yes, over time. But we get far more feedback from humans than snakes. Heck, my dog gives me feedback (happy, sad, in pain, etc..); snakes do not.

I don't think we even know what a wild cal king's medical stats are supposed to be? So what can we compare it to? Does a wild snake that feeds 99% live (some will take carion when available) be healthier, live longer (taking out the predation factor), have better productivity than a captive-bred snake? Wild snakes eat 99% live...will they live longer than a captive bred snake that feeds 99% f/t?

I believe feeding live is better than f/t in the long run. Can I prove it - no. Is the difference even measurable - probably not. But there is a difference.

Most people who feed f/t don't have their mice frozen for a long time before being used. So it may not make a difference.

I see, especially on the cornsnake forum, a lot of posts about their snake regurgitating. I agree a lot of factors could be the cause of regurge: thermoregulating after feeding, feeding too large of an item, parasites, AND maybe feeding a f/t that was dead for too long....too many factors with no results. Today doctors are saying that we are getting more and more food poisoning, but since the symptoms are similar to the "24 hour flu", we are being mis-diagnosed. We are in fact being posioned by what we eat and we call it the "flu".

So, happy feeding tonight with everyone's snakes whether it be live or f/t...........

Kerby...

As I have posted earlier, they are all good ways to feed. Feeding live (responsibly), f/t, or p/k are just good practice. I have a Splendida that will only eat live or p/k, but in the p/k case, I have to physically move it around or she'll just ignore it. She is quite fast and if I'm not careful, tongs or not, she'll snatch whatever comes first (fingers or food). And no, I don't feed in her cage either. She is approximately 6 years old and has pretty much only had live food. She is in no way different from a few other Splendida that I have, where I have done p/k & f/t. If you have the means for p/k, then go for it. Last year, I did a lot of f/t with excellant results. This year will be almost all p/k. My mouse and rat colonies have blossomed and I now have more than I can handle. Will probably freeze and vaccuum seal about 250 adult mice just to make some room. The vaccuum seal process will help in keeping them more fresh due to moisture loss and I will use this when supply gets short. It's all just personal preference. Oh, and Tom, I've seen your snakes and they are awesome. I wouldn't change a thing.

Later
Scott

I appreciate the compliment. I am 100% satisfied with the health of my snakes but was going to hopefully begin breeding my own rodents to cut down on expenses. I have 65 snakes and that does not include hatchlings I produce. I only have a few more on my "needed" list to complete a few projects but then I will attempt to close my doors and work only with stock I already have and from offspring I produce. I recently got a new camera, I am trying to get some better pics and will post some asap. Thanks again Tom Stevens

Let me know what you are going to have (hopefully) as I intend to get some from you this year. Your stuff is killer.

Later
Scott

Here's an eastern King - he's 77" long and very healthy (raised his whole entire life on frozen/thawed)!
Any questions???
Not to start trouble, but as you can see it doesn't really matter wether you feed live or not - As long as you do it responsibly! Even I feed some of my WC eastern kings an occasional live copperhead or watersnake or two . . . Or some live rodents (that were just bonked in the head)

Here's something to consider:
If you're going to stick to the "done it for millions of years" philosophy than you should do it like it has been done that way: Simulate EVERYTHING that happens in the wild, ie: Give the snake and rodent a burrow to crawl into. Killing a snake in a burrow is a LOT different than killing it in a 10 gallon aquarium or sweater box in the open! MOST snakes kill rodent prey inside dark burrows/tunnels that have walls that the snake uses to its' advantage to further subdue it's prey. It is extremely rare for a kingsnake in the wild to kill it's rodent prey in the open. They just don't feel comfortable doing it either - there's a chance for other predators to sneak up to the kingsnake and kill IT while it's eating. Remember, that Kingsnakes DO spend MOST of their lives underground - unless searching for a female or an occasinal basking to help digest a large meal! Why else do you think that Kingsnakes can be raised their entire lives without any light source or heat lamp).
My 1.5 cents!
Auf wiedersehn,

Zee

If one is to want to keep things "as it is in the wild", then leave it in the wild.............
I have great joy in raising the snakes I have and no one that has snakes treats them "as it is in the wild." We simulate temperature, enclose them and feed them more or less than the eat in the wild....
John Lassiter

Wow! Nice pic, John! Love those colors. Beautiful snakes!
Yes, exactly my point. . .If someone is going to simulate wild conditions (and use that as an argument) they shouldn't limit conditions to just a few variables - You either do it all the way, or you don't have any ground to stand on . . .

Hey John: I still love those pink pines!!!!!

Zee

Many good points.

If these "WHY TAKE THE RISK AMERON!!!" people knew the facts about the risks of driving and taking prescription drugs (40,000 & 105,000 deaths annually) would they stop taking pills and driving??

Their paranoia seems highly odd and scary to me, but at least it partially explains our current socio-political dilemma. (;

The light is not lit in every abode...

If you read it Kerby does not feed his snakes live. He pre kills them...................................................so why take the risk???

Kinda like saying if we want a burger, we need to kill the cow, then stick it between two pieces of bread and swallow it whole. I've never had any problem with F/T mice.

Sometimes I thump 'em sometimes I don't...depends on the situation as most of my snakes are w.c. and I want a good feeding response for their first meal with me. With the babies it's always live pinks but as they get older and if they are to remain in my collection, the mice get bonked. I love having my snakes and watch every meal until it is down for good. I only have problems with my Mex milk about regurging because it will only eat large hoppers or small rat pups but when I try a full grown mouse, half way down, all the way back up. They have no distinction between head and neck so it must fit or it don't go down. All my others have no problems and my '03 MBK's can handle full grown mice easily now. I guess I tend to fall in the live and f/k catagories but as my collection grows may consider f/t. I do believe however that fresh is fresher and probably more nutritious but really we have no data to back it up. I personally would rather eat a Subway than a McDonald's most of the time but could go for either one on any given day. Since the snakes can't choose in captivity, I guess it's up to us to be responsible and do what we feel is best for our charges. Some snakes can and do eat road kill, so are they missing out on any nutrition? I think not as they saved energy by not having to hunt as hard or constrict/overpower their "prey". Been a great debate but I agree with Tom, let's move on. Hey Florida, ya'll are semi-tropical, where are the field reports? Hey John, these people deserve some more better pics! C'mon whaddaya say?
Todd Hughes