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evolution of chemical defense in a lizard...

lateralis Feb 26, 2005 06:44 PM

You have to be impressed with that. Of all the many species of lizard that exist today, why do only the Gila and the Beaded have a venomous twist to their already impressive bite?? They are certainly stout lizards that would be hard to overpower except for the larger predators, in addition they have VERY strong jaws and large teeth. But why the venom?? That they diverged from varanidae at about the same time that mammals truly began the struggle for dominance on earth is evident, but what prompted the venom gland? Were they subject to some pressure that other lizards avoided? Was the niche they chose to occupy of such a nature as to demand the evolution of a chemical defense? Cant someone please give me the answer to all my questions! LOL....

B.

Replies (5)

00235020 Feb 26, 2005 07:33 PM

Well good question, and of course no one knows for sure. One possible thing I can think of is gilas (at least) spend alot of time being cool (body temp 70-80 degrees F) their venom may help them digest food without the aid of a super high temps....just my guess...what do you all think?? Possible?

Chris
-----
0.0.2 Gila Monsters
1.2 KSB
1.0 Leopard Gecko -Dudly
1.0 Pacman Frog- Frigity
1.1 Rats -Killer(albino)- Twitch (babies are dinner)hehe

aaronblack Feb 27, 2005 09:51 PM

Would their powerful jaws be enough to subdue their prey without the venom? Like you said, Im not sure what predator their venom would be intended to defend against.

jurassic Feb 28, 2005 03:44 AM

But for digestion I believe. If it was for defense I would think the would have a better delivery system (hollowed fangs). Correct me if I am wrong but I believe they found the venoum to break down sugars and protiens very effecently, reasearch being done for diabetic control.(link)
Also if it was for defense it would be far more harmful and a anti-venoum would be required.
Just some facts with thoughts.
Robert
Monster Drug

Doug T Feb 28, 2005 12:17 PM

Subduing prey and Making predators go away.

Your conslusion that if venom were for defense it would be more harmful is not quite on target. When venom is for defense, it needs to be more PAINFULL. Think ants, bees, wasps. It doesn't need to kill the predator or threat, just make it let go, run away or never attack again.

When it's for subduing prey or digestion, it needs to be DEADLY so that the prey doesn't injure the one injecting the venom, let the prey run away or at least not run too far. Think Black Widow Spiders or Rattlesnakes.

Venom in Heloderms is probably almost exclusively for defense. The stuff they eat, eggs, baby birds and rodents, etc, isn't likely to run away. It doesn't have much of a history of killing people (some say none), and we would certainly be a "predator" in the heloderms eyes. Those who have been bitten have made it clear... it hurts as bad as something can hurt.

I could come up with guesses why they evolved venom, but they would only be guesses. How about this: The prey they take doesn't run away fast, so any evolutionary pressure to develop fast moving legs would only be for escaping predators. The individuals developing a painful venomous bite expended less energy avoiding being eaten and thus were adapted better for times when food was scarce than were the lizards who had to expend energy running away from predators.

Just thoughts to mull over.

Doug T

>>But for digestion I believe. If it was for defense I would think the would have a better delivery system (hollowed fangs). Correct me if I am wrong but I believe they found the venoum to break down sugars and protiens very effecently, reasearch being done for diabetic control.(link)
>> Also if it was for defense it would be far more harmful and a anti-venoum would be required.
>>Just some facts with thoughts.
>>Robert
>>Monster Drug

jurassic Mar 01, 2005 03:36 AM

Thats a good thought. As most animals in nature that are small enough to be prey have the bright color to advertise "venomous dont mess with me"..Also maybe there prey is chosen due to there speed or lack there of? But if they didnt have the venoum they would be easy prey for most large birds,coyotes in the area as well. Good point!
Thanks for the feedback,
Robert

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